Simply put, there's nothing this unit can do that Sun Tze version 1 does not do better (this is a simplification and not the subject of the thread), or at least at significantly lower risk. So, how to make Sun Tze v2 not just functional, but desirable? Let me start off with a few thoughts: Lieutenant L2 - Drop Advanced Command in favour of this one. Sun2 generates 2 orders through the power of combining LT and Strategos. It's a boring band-aid, but 12 orders in LI is scary, for the drawback of being very squishy for a roughly 62/1,5 model. Jumper - Make Sun Tze be in several places at once. Introduce another Sun Tze alter-ego so that at a premium cost (and by this I mean premium compared to the normal Jumper) you can get up to three Suns on the board; the Tank, the DPS and the Healer*. I'm ballparking Sun1+Sun2 to be shy of 90, and that's after adding a tax because "you are doing what with your hyper-LT!?" Armand V2 - Just give up on the whole Advanced Command side of things. Add in an ODD gift from Aleph, drop Strategos to 1 (or replace with Lieutenant 2 or even 3**), drop Advanced Command completely and replace the Flash Pulse with Artillery Spotter (aka Forward Observer). Slightly leaner, slightly meaner than the HI profile and more geared towards completing missions. * Or Infiltrator, but I thought the MMO holy trinity would be more fun, but come think of it Healer makes a bit of sense for Sun since he's more pragmatic and more in touch with the human side of operations than Yu Jing leadership. ** On LT3; if Yu Jing gets a HI NCO from IA, then this is of course ludicrous, but on the assumption that an ODD model with good BS, through-the-roof WIP, and decent weapons for a near guaranteed button push and a strong mid-field skirmisher, this Sun would be able to eat through those two LT orders on his own. Pheasant mandatory.
What Solodice wrote. It's their new trick to get people to field the Asura. Asura has two LTs with LT2; Spitifre and MRifle+HD+. Can Haris with Yadu, the latter which has both a Haris+DropBear and a NCO profile. The NCO profile can spend orders as if Regular orders. Translated is that this Yadu "semi-HI" Haris can spend up to 12 orders per turn without having the Fireteam break down and provided 2 of those orders are with the Yadu NCO as the Leader. (I'm a bit fussy on the last part)
Ok that sounds pretty useful, does NCO turn the LT order into a regular order or is it LT2 that does that?
NCO lets you use the LT order for that unit with NCO. It's still up in the air if this can work in a link team as it says LT order and not that NCO makes the LT order into a regular order (like Strategos). We'll have to wait and see because NCO was forgotten in the new rules PDF...
That wouldn't be the case if V1 didn't end up with one of the most efficient skill in the game, hence making it the better gunfighter: mimetism. Really, that's the saddest thing about V2. It could have a very interesting niche as a sniper who can be deployed in the perfect spot (thanks to strategos) and then reliably take out long ARO with much less risk to die than most of our units (thanks to immunity), but it just needs a little push to tip the FtF scale in its favor vs fireteam's long range ARO when he can't outrange them. I know it's an easy fix but in this case mimetism would truly be ideal, and that would make it a really good complement to a Su-jian or a crane spitfire.
Well, in general while a Ninja will do reliable shooting for cheaper, it sounds a bit like you're leaning towards the Armand approach? I mostly think that Sun1 and Sun2 needs to be more different in their approach to LT-ing.
I don't think he's far off being useful. I think he probably needs ambush camo and/or marksmanship L2 to be more of a player in the active turn, because let's face it, only an idiot would leave a sniper lieutenant on ARO duty. Maybe minelayer and some nice high tech monofilament mines so he can make his sniper nest secure. Strategos L3 is Sun Tze's thing, don't take that away from him. Also I'd rather see a solid profile based on appropriate existing rules rather than everyone picking up the new rule of the month.
Sun Tze V2 is fine, it could be better shoter (like add mimetism) or have acces to a cheap CoC. The main problem is to have a expensive active troop with sniper and burst two, but for me is a toolbox unit. He can cover some firelanes on ARO, be an active killer and help with strategos. Maybe is for my meta but V2 is far more worth that the V1, a very expensive decoy in my opinion ( never pay more than 65 points for a combi rifle troop if it don't infiltrate/combat jump)
That's the key. ARO pieces risk too much in Infinity, so Sun v2 depends a lot on the table AND winning the deployment roll. You can easily find your 61 points ARO piece can't show up because there isn't a good position for him on your side of the table. CoC costs another 29 points, looks like CB don't want to see Sun v2 on the table at all. Same goes for v1, you can't have such an expensive unit just hidden in your deployment zone, but he is hackable, so advance an obvious Lt without CoC is extremely risky. I think we all would rather Sun v1 and v2 to be heavy nerfed if that means an important point cost drop, but the ideal solution would be a cheap CoC, and it wouldn't be an autoinclude because Sun is too expensive for that.
Just saying, but I've never had Sun1 put me in LoL or trigger CoC. There was this one time where he died on turn 3 when taking on an entire 4-man Myrmidon link and this other time when extremely poor rolls made him end up in NWI after killing a Speculo on turn 1, but that's it. He's an absolute tank. Without exaggeration, he's the only LT profile where I do not at least consider the Pheasant for CoC (which is an idea I usually reject and look at Sforza for misdirection instead). Also, the only way to realistically drop Sun in points is to drop the extremely high WIP, although the new approaches to lieutenantship does allow for more cost-effective means of describing a highly talented commander without the 9 points that Strategos 3 and Advanced Command costs, which is one of the things I'd like to explore with Sun2 - and I'm specifically targetting Sun2 because it's a profile that is not proven by the community and given the lack of ODD/TO wants to be active instead of supplying orders to others. Particularly since this faction is suffering from repetition-bloat in sniper and LT categories. We're getting a lot of snipers with very similar performance and a lot of LTs with very similar performance, and we don't really need two options for Strategos 3 WIP 17 Advance Command.
Meh, it's just a different approach really. Some players would rather have a Lt sit prone on a rooftop and save up on CoC, whereas others can work around a more offensive leader, and don't mind paying extra for a back-up Coc who might get something done turn 3 with the additional order. Sure Sun Tze is expensive, but that's because he isn't designed to sit in the back like a filthy Saladin. If you do so you're just wasting the potential of a perfectly fine attack piece. Well, V1 is perfectly fine, V2 just need this little thing that would make him the fighter you're supposed to get for this price tag, and not one that's made or broken by terrain configuration. If V2 had mimetism, i'd probably consider playing something like that: Marksman Sun Tze ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 7 SÙ-JIÀN Spitfire, Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 59) CELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13) KUANG SHI Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) KUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5) PHEASANT IMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command) Red Fury / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1 | 35) GROUP 2 4 1 SUN TZE Lieutenant (Advanced Command) MULTI Sniper Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 61) SFORZA Viral Rifle + Adhesive Launcher, Nanopulser / Heavy Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 30) SOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31) YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) CELESTIAL GUARD Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21) WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
I am a bit of a fan of Sun Tze V2, he's done well in a number of games for me and I really don't agree with the people who claim him to be just bad. However I can agree that it's somewhat redundant to have two characters (even if they are technically the same person) with exactly the same Lt benefits that are main reason for taking them. Not sure about him having this new Lt lvl2 skill, although there's no doubt that would be a potent upgrade. To add in my own suggestion to the mix for possible changes would be to drop strategos but give him inspiring leadership. Probably keep advanced command but it's not a big deal either way. This way he significantly changes how you write and use your list and how he supports the army. Everybody's regular and that Lt order can be used for a co-ordinated order every turn.
I think that's because of the heavy unbalance between both Sun Tze, but if we had two nice Sun Tze maybe we would love the chance to choose between two different Strategos 3. Maybe he could drop advance command, but strategos 3 + high wip is what defines him and makes him different over any other HI
