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Suggestion: Treat Pilots as AI Motorcycle

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Ogid, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Recently we had some interesting (and heated) threads about TAGs and pilots:
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/which-states-pass-on-from-tag-to-pilot.33918/
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...their-tag-both-generate-an-order-token.33928/
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/can-you-dismount-a-tag-with-a-dodge.33958/

    The general conclusions are:
    • Pilots doesn't generate their own order (RAW seem they do, but it's not intended, so they don't)
    • No idea of how to handle the Pilot and TAG states when the pilot step out (pending CB rulling)
    • No idea of the secuence of mounting/dismounting: We know the TAG generates no ARO but we don't know if we have to activate the TAG profile or not to dismount the Pilot. This isn't that important tho.
    I've just noticed that the rules for AI motorcycle could help us here:
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/AI_Motorcycle
    IMPORTANT: Only how to handle states when pilot dismount and how to mount/dismount.
    Remote Pilot could also use these rules (in addition to their Reset and Locked mechanic)

    Example of playing AI Motorcycle. Move (Dismounting) + Move
    During her Active Turn, the Zondnaut Irina Vlasic, mounted on her AI Motorcycle, declares an Order of Move (Dismount) + Move. For the first Short Skill of the Order she uses her Dismounted Trooper Profile, applying the first value of MOV from this profile. Irina dismounts at the beginning of her movement, so her player replaces the mounted model with a REM and a miniature of the dismounted pilot, placing the REM where the Motorcycle was and the pilot next to it, in base contact. The next step is declaring the trajectory of her first Move and when it comes to measuring, the player does it from the edge of the REM's base.
    Example of playing AI Motorcycle. Move (Dismounting) + BS Attack
    During her Active Turn, the Zondnaut Irina Vlasic, mounted on her AI Motorcycle, declares an Order of Move (Dismount) + BS Attack. For the first Short Skill of the Order, since she declared Move and Dismounting, she dismounts at the beginning of her movement, so her player replaces the mounted model by a REM and a miniature of the dismounted pilot, placing the REM where the Motorcycle was and the pilot next to it, in base contact with it. Now she has to use her Dismounted Trooper Profile, applying the first value for MOV from that profile. Next step is declaring the trajectory of her movement and when it comes to measuring, the player does it from the border of the base of the REM. Since she is applying her Dismounted Trooper Profile she can activate her ZondMate. So, since she declared Move, applying the G: Synchronized Special Skill of the REM, it also declares Move.
    The ZondMate and Irina grant a single ARO to each enemy trooper in LoF or ZoC.
    In the Second Short Skill of the Order, Irina declares a BS Attack. Since she is using her Dismounted Trooper Profile, her ZondMate is activated as well and, applying the Special Skill of the G: Synchronized REM, since she declared BS Attack, it also declares BS Attack.
    Example of playing AI Motorcycle. Move (Mounting) + BS Attack
    During her Active Turn, the Zondnaut Irina Vlasic, who is dismounted, but in base contact with her ZondMate, declares an Order of Move (Mount) + BS Attack. For the first Short Skill of the Order, since she declared Move and mounting, she does so at the beginning of her movement, so the player replaces the REM and the model of the dismounted pilot with the AI Motorcycle model, placing her in the position where the REM was. Now she will have to use her Mounted Trooper Profile, applying the first value for MOV from this profile. Then, she declares the trajectory of her movement.
    Enemy troopers with LOF or in ZoC can declare their ARO, but in this scenario it will only be against the model with the Mounted Trooper Profile.
    In the second Short Skill of the Order, Irina declares a BS Attack. Since she is using her Mounted Trooper profile, she can use the weapons that that profile includes, but not the ZondMate anymore, since it is now her Motorcycle.
    Example of playing AI Motorcycle. Move (Dismounting) + CC Attack
    During her Active Turn, the Zondnaut Irina Vlasic, mounted on her AI Motorcycle, declares an Order of Move (Dismount)’’ + CC Attack. For the first Short Skill of the Order, since she declared Move and dismounting, she does so at the beginning of her movement, so her player replaces the mounted model with a REM and a miniature of the dismounted pilot, placing the REM where the AI Motorcycle was and the pilot next to it, in base contact with it. Now she has to use her Dismounted Trooper Profile, applying the first value for MOV from that profile. Next step is declaring the trajectory of her movement and when it comes to measuring the player does it from the border of the base of the REM until reaching in base contact with the enemy trooper. Since she is applying her Dismounted Trooper Profile, she can activate her ZondMate too. So, since she declared Move, applying the REM's G: Synchronized Special Skill, it also declares Move, moving until it reaches base contact with the same enemy trooper that Irina, its controller, is in contact with.
    In the second Short Skill of the Order, Irina declares a CC Attack. Since her Dismounted Trooper Profile is used, she also activates her ZondMate. So, since she declared a CC Attack, applying the REM's G: Synchronized Special Skill, it grants Irina a +1 MOD to her B and +1 to her PH for the Damage.
    Disclaimer: This is a generalization of a rule. AI motorcycle an Pilot/Manned are different rules and the intended mechanics for TAGs/Pilot could be different.
    However, AI motorcycle is also a model with 2 profiles so this could be a good way to handle the Pilot/TAG states until CB reworks the Manned, Pilot and Remote Pilot rules.
    Note: Only for states (I'm not suggesting treating the Pilot as a G:Sync)

    If we go back to the unanswer question thread:
    If it works like the AI mororcycle thee answers would be:
    • Question 1 (None). Both are different troopers, but both are Targeted and Isolated.
    • Question 2 (2 ok) The Pilot is not affected as it counts as a different trooper while in the table. An Engineer would only cancel states from the miniature he is in b2b, Pilot or TAG.
    • Question 3 (2 ok, but different reasoning) As both are different troopers both have its own unconscious state.
    • Question 4 (2 ok) In the Zondnautica examples of mount and dismount the skill (Move+Mount/Dismount) is first declared without activating any profile and then only the new profile is activated.
    Extra: Even if an unmounted Pilot/Remote Pilot could generate an Order RAW, it's confirmed that's not the intended behaviour (but this will need to be addressed when these rules are revised)
     
    #1 Ogid, Jul 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's a good idea, but CB doesn't seem like they're in the mode of doing that kind of thing.
     
  3. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but they may surprise us with the July FAQ+Errata.
     
  4. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Trying to adapt AI Motorcycle rules for pilots seems like it's missing the way simpler alternative: Take the rules that CB drafted for the Remote Pilot (which explain in a good deal of detail how the remote and the TAG interact) and make the modifications needed for regular pilots.
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The Remote Pilot could also use that rulling with the exception of its Reset and Locked mechanic. In fact, I'm going to add that to the first post.

    The problem with Pilots (and Remote Pilots) is that both are different troopers (when the pilot is unmounted) and the same trooper (pilot mounted), and we were given no rules to know how to handle the states in those transitions (or exactly which profiles activate in each transition).

    That part is ruled for AI Motorcycles and for rules coherency it'd probably work the same for Pilots/Remote pilots; but unless that's stated officialy by CB, that's a generalization of a rule no supported by the RAW right now.

    EDIT: Some typos.
     
    #5 Ogid, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    AI Motorcycle certainly seems like the best of the bunch to use as a template. But if I were to try and fix these rules, I'd opt for a rewrite where the goal is to streamline the functionality of all these profile switchers. Transmutation, Mech Trans, TAG+Pilots, etc. Minimizing exceptions as much as possible. This will require a broader focus than just the Special Skill rules.

    I'd want each switch to be governed by the same basic rules Each type of switch would only have to reference this new rule instead of writing paragraphs in each skill. The same would apply to Order generation. I'd make it clear within the rules for Order generation rather than using lines of text in each skill yet again to explain this. To that end I might consider nesting profiles together so the type of Order generated sits outside the attributes of the profile. This will make it clear only one Order is ever generated.

    Game States would need to be explained and defined more clearly. Stating how they apply to nested profiles that either share one miniature or two. This might result in a redefinition of 'trooper' but that's fine.

    The key is to keep as many rules at a higher level so they filter down throughout the game. This removes the need to write the same rules again and again for skills. Exceptions would need to be seriously considered before being added to the game. For example, we'd ask ourselves if the Ejection system is worthwhile (That's not a question).

    I'm not saying any of these ideas are 100% correct, they are open for change. I'm just brainstorming.
     
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  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I do like that idea, it's something simmilar to refractoring in informatics, clean up the "code" but without changing the functionality. However that's a major change that would need an new edition or simmilar to happen and has its own dissadvantages. The more "generic" your skills are, the less flexibility you have to create new mechanics.
     
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  8. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't think those two necessarily need to be connected. The rules can still be broken down to their components and the universal ones moved to a higher level. Leaving all the new mechanics and exceptions as part of the special skill.

    Normal ammo and BS Attacks function in this vein already. Instead of every weapon stating the trooper loses a wound after failing the appropriate save, the rules simply assign NA to every appropriate gun. Guns themselves don't all have individual rules for how to shoot them. They rely on a higher level rule, the BS Attack, in order to function. And I'd argue there's plenty of variety under such a rule structure.

    But you are right, it's an edition change. I know the rest of world typically prefers small incremental changes to improve things, but that's not something I'm really interested in. It would be like not building the next space shuttle with warp drive (if available) because doing so would be too much work and too different than the previous version.
     
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