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Suggestion: Medium Infantry

Discussion in 'Rules suggestions' started by chroma.mk, Mar 31, 2024.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    It would make shotguns the only DTW needing a roll, and probably make shotguns deadlier in the process.
     
  2. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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  3. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
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    I guess because both modes would force face to face rolls. And this would result in a higher tendency of using BS attacks instead of dodges against the shotgun user. Which can be more deadly for the user.

    That said, I'd actually prefer the Blast Mode to be f2f DTW BS Attacks on the trooper's non modifiable BS Attribute. This way there'd be a difference between the low ranked mooks and the higherups when interacting with opponents.

    (I might have to note that I was a real fan of the N3 shotguns. Exeptionally good against pesky 5er Links.)
     
    #43 Tristan228, Apr 2, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2024
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  4. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Right now, you only need to Dodge a DTW. If it became a roll, it would be a F2F roll. I’m guessing at that range it would be at +6 as well.
     
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  5. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Correct, forcing an unopposed roll to become a face to face roll makes such a DTW deadlier.

    And yes, the assumption of +6 is there, would not make much sense otherwise.
     
  6. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    That’s true. I’d be in favour of just taking the damage down a little more, -2 or even 3. Make the dedicated dtws more valuable and emphasize the shotgun template as a secondary weapon, like pistols.
     
  7. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    Not really. While a situation where a shotgun slug would be a better choice to a shotgun template would be highly situational in this case, I can imagine a situation when there is a friendly target behind the intended target. Firing a template at the intended target would be illegal in that case.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Have to point out that the main reason not to bring back N3 style shotgun impacts was and still is how incredibly awkward it was placing the template.

    Aside from the frequent misreading that resulted in people putting the template perpendicular to the line of fire, it is difficult placing in a 2D environment, let alone in a 3D, without shaky hands, slight bending when leaning over, etc resulting in considerably larger template than it actually should be.
    Removing it was the correct choice.

    That said, honestly, Light Shotguns are so cheap that there is a very strong argument that they shouldn't have a second fire mode at all.

    I also very much believe that the reason why [expensive, short ranged, high cost units with a single wound] are so far from favour right now is how many templates lists tend to have.
    While N3 had fewer units with direct templates, given how common these armaments have become, that we now on average see 5 fewer units per list, we're still seeing roughly the same number of direct temolate weapons per list.

    Oh, and it's not just medium infantry.
    And several medium infantry are very frequently used. Just have to have the correct set of abilities to punch up against HI and punch out of range of warbands.
     
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  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    That is a fair assessment.
     
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    The fact that Bolts were considered bottom of the pack, but are in a quite good spot now, shows that issues can be resolved. Preferably not by giving every problematic unit Marksmanship, but still ;)
     
  11. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    For me they always performed great, to be fair it had a lot to do with the local meta I had in N3, bio immunity and BTS 6 made them extremely well armoured in that meta.

    But yes, fixes can be achieved.
     
  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    For 1 W minis to be useful they need to fulfil the following, the more they have the better.

    1) are they elite gunfighters?

    2) Do they have mobility skills? C+ or Super Jump. Or weirdly high MOV.

    3) Do they have good link options?

    4) Are they bringing notably useful non-BS capabilities or skills such as truly great hacking ability. Actually that's probably about it but skills like CoC also are good, Parachutist can be good, camo is good. This one is less useful tbh, but can actually make a unit. Carlota Kowalsky for example. And she has 2 as well.

    1, 2 and 3 are key, and really, you need 1 and 2 or 3, ideally all of them.

    Karrhu are great. They tick all three. Zhayedan are great, they tick 1 and 3. Moiras are good, 1 and 3, so on an so on. If you want people to take 1 W guys that cost a fair whack, give them mimetism, msv, marksmanship (or some combination thereof), C+, a HMG and wildcard. The problem is like, look at Wildcats. Okay shooters, but not elite. Okay link options. Poor mobility, poor special skills.

    1 W minis that cost a fair bit and want to fight within 8" are simply bad at the moment.
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Bolts have really only 1, 3 is with the new additions really and they were considered good before them, can we say they are 1 applied twice? I am not sure I would say Karhu have great link options, they are easy to put everywhere but cannot form pure cores.
     
  14. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    I'm not convinced point 4 is actually so low. I'd say it can be more important than any of the other three, particularly if such capabilities are otherwise rare in army in question. Very often when building a list I'm more interested in expanding the toolset, than in adding another hammer. As usual, it's all very context-dependent.
     
  15. SpectralOwl

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    We can definitely say Bolts are elite elite gunfighters, yes, but they're also packing a CoC profile, Drop Bears, E/M Mines, Veteran Hackers and Direct Templates. That level of versatility is rare in NCA (can't speak for FoCo), gives you a variety of powerful options depending on the profile you pick, and their only real weakness is their standard mobility and vulnerability to templates.

    I would definitely say Karhu have great link options, given they work great in any Haris.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Karrhu are great because they can go anywhere and mean you can always take a really elite shooter. Pure core is something they don't need, which tells you how good that Feuerbach profile is.

    Bolts are 1 and 3 and were largely 1 before, yes. And Bolts are good, not astonishing, but good.

    I think if you have MSV/Marksmanship/Mimetism (pick two) and a relevant gun you're probably usable as an expensive 1 W guy. Let's look at the guys who don't... Lobos? Sekbans? These units frankly just suck.
     
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  17. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I am not saying they have bad link options, I am saying they can never achieve a pure core, how do we define a great link option?
     
  18. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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    Either being able to form cheap-ish pure cores (Bolts) or slot into one (Zhayedan) or not needing pure cores to be great but being a wildcard so you can go anywhere (Karhu).
     
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  19. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Again, context dependent. There's no single definitive answer. I'd say that great link options are such which allows a unit to be effective (which is a very subjective term). Some units need that additional +3 BS and Sixth Sense, some don't - even if they'd be obviously better with it. Case to study - Rodoks. Before last MAF rework they were considered great, if somewhat expensive, gunfighters. Decent BS, Mimetism, good weapon choices, Super Jump. Post-rework they lost Core and HMG options, and people started complaining. Is there merit to those complains? Do Rodoks need Core to function? Or are they good enough as a Haris, and it's just that people keep trying to push square block into a round hole?
     
  20. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    What is your problem with the Sekban about?

    • They are good shot at BS 13.
    • They all come with NCO, improving on your Lt. Order flexibility.
    • They all come with 360-visor. Which is pretty useful for making sure no-one is going to get behind your back effortlessly.
    • They have SWC options for Spitfire, Red Fury (pretty redundant if you have a Spitfire already, but hey) and HRL.
    • Non-SWC, they have BSGs or AP Rifles+LSGs.
    • They give you an option for Doc and a generic Specialist Operative.
    In their native QK sectorial they are Wildcard-linkable. So you can attach them to any Core or Haris - one of my preferred uses is sticking a Sekban Doc with Azra'il Haris, providing them a Doc on hand and also someone to watch their back (260-visor) against paratroopers and the like.

    A Sekban Core is not half-bad either, plus you can cheapen it doen with up to 2 Hafza, or beef it up with up to 2 Burkut, and is still stays a pure Fireteam...
     
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