Just wondering what the goto strategies are for dealing with models prone in buildings. In this case I was running a double TAG list in PanO, and hid a bunch of Fusie cheerleaders in the 2nd story of buildings, away from the doors and windows, prone, in my deployment zone. I'm not see a good way for my opponent to deal with these models efficently. Spec fire is usually going to take a couple of orders. Super Jump is decent, but I was pretty spread out, so maybe 1-2 order per turn. It's possible to ignore the troopers, and just concentrate on the TAGs, but that's problematic, since the TAGs are pretty sturdy. (I was running Dragoes and Tikbalang). After turn 1, I'm generally going to put them into total cover if possible, and probably with suppression fire. They both have heavy flame throwers, which can burn most things down, if they can't blow it away with suppression. Not saying it's unstoppable, but it feels a bit cheap. Here's the list, and we were playing Firefight. My opponent was running JSA, 4 bikers, Yojimbo, 5 man link team, doctor, Oniwaban, 3 Ryuken. PanOceania ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 DRÃGAO Hyper-Rapid Magnetic Cannon, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2.5 | 94) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () TIKBALANG HMG, Heavy Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / AP CCW. (2 | 85) CRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. () MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15) PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) KAMAU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28) SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) 6 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
An infiltrator, especially a sniper infiltrator, may be able to start on a taller building in the middle of the map and will simply kill all of them (unless the tallest building is in your DZ). Or hack the tik, let him climb and burn your cheerleaders, and then jump as high as he can and die from the fall. You have nearly no hacking defenses. EDIT: or engage the TAG with any warband with smoke and good CC, the TAG will probably be locked in CC forever since you don't have any MSV to prevent this from happening.
Unless the buildings you are using are completely sealed, then speculative fire will be able to deal with them from distance. Grenades and Grenade launchers are getting more and more use lately. Beyond that, climbing plus models or even super jump can get them in and around models. Having a good deal of your cheerleaders hidden also gives opponents more freedom to maneuver around your TAGs and either ignore them, take them out or away.
" I'm not see a good way for my opponent to deal with these models efficiently." Isn't that the point? Sounds like you did well and presented your opponent with a challenge for them to deal with. Not seeing a problem.
True, though to be honest, I've found that most people don't use ladders, so I've gotten lazier about putting them out, and none of my buildings have built in stairs. Frankly buildings with built in stairs are really the best approach. Most things with climbing plus are decent, but it's rare, and the model with climbing plus is going to be getting shot outside of cover in most cases. The Tikbalang can probably face tank the shot, but for a lot of other models it's an issue, unless you go up behind the hiding model. That's an excellent solution for models on roofs. In this case the models where in the second floor of buildings, so getting to an angle to shoot them would be challenging. Same issue for a pop-up attack with super jump. Good point, that would work in this case, not so sure it's applicable in the general case. Maybe, but it seems like grenade launchers are relatively rare as a profile, and usually cost SWC, which makes it rare for them to be taken. I'm not sure why they cost SWC, seems like this should be relaxed. It's disappointing this didn't happen during the N3-HSN3 readjustments to the various profiles. Ignoring the problems with having a grenade launcher in a list, they're BS1 on platforms which usually do not have high BS skills, and damage 13. Even on a high BS platform, -3 to hit is still 10-11s. This means ~25% success rate per shot, or 3-4 orders per target, and then there's the orders to get them into position. Grenades are often a bit better, since they're on high PH profiles, but you need to get closer, and they're still damage 13. Usually this is on models in Arianda, where there are often a lot of orders, so maybe here you might be able to take out 2-3 models in a turn. So I might take a chance if I've got a profile that had a LGL or Grenades in addition to everything else, but I'm not going to plan around that. Way to order intensive. Frankly I never field LGL profiles, and I've only seen them fielded once, where my opponent tried for an entire combat group's worth of orders to have any effect on my models.
No, challenges are fine, unsolvable problems are not. It's definitely a challenge, I'm wondering if it's unsolvable. Seems like there are a few solutions: snipers, climbing plus, ignoring the models, but none feel like they're a good solution. It still feels way to easy to just take advantage of the terrain an force my opponent to fight an uphill battle against the odds as a result. EDIT: I think I should also point out that my opponent was new to the game, and I was looking for some way for him to win after the match, and coming up empty. Sometimes matches are like that, but it would have been nice to offer him some useful suggestions.
Yup, if they are inside a building, that can be challenging, a sniper may not have a line of sight. If you have some warbands in your list you may try to smoke your way in and do intuitive fire with a chain rifle or something, or go melee the various opponents. If not, that may be a problem depending on which unit you have. The second point depends on whether you have AHD or not. Given AHD is more expensive than KHD and is often seen as a weakpoint, it's quite possible that you don't have any AHD. The main drawback of your list is that if you hide your fusillers you have basically no support except the Sierra REM. You may have 2 TAGs, you are still very vulnerable to either an AD or a high mobility troop coming behind your TAG, or a brute force shooting at one of your TAG from an angle where the other cannot shoot back. Among the many possibilities, TO sniper >80 cm, high burst ODD weapon <40cm, smoke + msv weapon, they can all wreak your TAG. A TAG is only sturdy if behind a cover, ARM6 or 8 won't be enough to tank several orders from even a spitfire. If i have to fight this list, i wouldnt hesitate to use all my orders from turn 1 and 2 to kill your 2 tags, given you would have nothing to oppose me after that. The only problem would be to not bring you into retreat.
I don't think that's a very efficient approach either. I doubt it's going to be something I'm going to need to worry about turn one, since you're going to need to get across the board, which is going to be 3-4 orders, I'm going to remove 2 orders , which leaves you 2-3 orders and you're still going to need to deal with the TR bot. Assuming you get across the board, you're going to need to 2-3 orders per model, if not more. (Move-smoke, move (up ladder)-CC, or move (up ladder), intuitive attack). Then it's going to be move(down ladder, closer to the next target), etc. They were generally about 6" apart. You might be able to kill 1 model in the first turn, and then one of the TAGs removes your model. Then you'd need to start the whole process again. You're also going to need to deal with the TR REM, and one or more of the TAGs. The Kamau has a HD, which has brain blast and has exorcism. In this particular case the list could be improved by replacing a Fusie with a Fugazie REM, which would have a repeater, and allow me to cover the Tikbalang as well. Sure, which is why I had the Dragoes deployed into full cover, and had the Tikbalang in reserve. I went second in this case, and forced my opponent to deploy first. Table setup meant that it wasn't possible walk up behind the Dragoes turn one, so AD troopers weren't an issue. TO sniper might have caught the Tikbalang out, but then I fall back to the Dragoes. Generally though, he's going to get one hit, and then I'm going to fall back into total cover. Smoke + MSV pretty much means Intruder, or I would know where the visor was, and deploy accordingly. Same with ODD. If I do not know, or have to deploy first, the TAGs are going into total cover, while defending the deployment zone, along with the TR REM. I think you've got a very good point with the high mobility trooper with a high burst weapon. I'd likely lose a TAG to that, and then be able to respond in kind. I had the TAGs deployed on either side of the board, making it unlikely that a high mobility trooper would get both. To be frank, I think this dual TAG list is far from optimal. I generally had either one or the other do little during most of the game, other than providing an order. I probably would have been better off with a few more pieces, rather than having over half my points in two models. In addition to some of the points you raised there's also the issue of a few bad die rolls just ruining things. For example, in one game I went up against a TR REM with the Dragoe at 8-16" band. According to N3 dice, the odds of the TR REM succeeding at about 5%, yet the other guy managed to crit the Dragoes 3 times in a row, forcing me to move up the Palbot and repair it. Then the dice swung the other way, and the Dragoes managed to put down the TR REM and a AD trooper with AROs, including getting shot in the back by both the AD trooper, and then the REM. Having more, cheaper models means that runs of luck have far less impact on the game. Since this isn't an optimal list, IMHO, I'm more wondering what the drawbacks are to just hiding cheap cheerleaders in difficult to remove spots.
Standard HD, especially the kamau with no marker state and low WIP, is not that much of a threat even for a marker state AHD. Plus without any repeater, unless he is sitting on top of the TAG, there should be a way to be in range of the TAG but not from the HD. You can cancel overlord, but not isolation. Your engineer can, but he would have to walk to the TAG for it. But, very well, you hide all your cheerleaders and TAGs turn 1. I shoot the TR bot. Then, i can just do whatever i want. Say, i transform the midlane into some sort of swamp, with marker states everywhere, repeaters, warbands ready to ARO engage around corners, hidden threats ... what do you do ? It's your turn, you cannot shoot anything since i too hid my troops, you have no control over the midtable. Will you try to move your precious TAG into it ? Can you even do it, even with Tik being climber+ ? How will you manage the repeater network ? From the moment you hide all your troops, you will let your opponent the control of the whole board. Then that will depend on the mission, but personnally i would totally use my first turn to set up traps for you. I can't reach you ? OK, try to reach me then.
Ah, okay, I see your point, I didn't realize before how useful it could be to walk past the Kamau or any repeaters I might have. You're correct, very little I could do about that. OTOH, marker state + AHD is relatively rare or expensive. Mostly I was bringing that Kamau to defend against most hackers, and possession. The engineer/palbot can fix isolation. Assuming you did bring one, what can I do turn one to stop it with the Fusies? I don't think it's particularly relevant to whether or not they're on top of buildings. I guess I could shoot your marker state hacker once it revealed, but by then I'd assume you'd applied isolation. Maybe I hide the TAGs, I definitely hold one in reserve, and use it to lock down part of the board. I definitely do not expose either one to long fire lanes since you're correct I will likely lose them turn 1. If you shoot the TR bot, you've likely spend a good part of an order pool doing so. It's definitely possible to jump it in one order with a camo unit, but I usually make sure to avoid long fire lanes with the TR REM as well, so you've spent some time maneuvering up first. Actually you cannot do whatever you want, since you spend half an order pool dealing with the TR REM, or holding back highly impetus troops. So you've got a few orders to deploy your repeaters, mines, etc. You also need to get into position to do so, etc. Honestly, a large repeater network is a big problem for this list, as is camo spam. (Maybe I should have brought a pathfinder?) However, locally I don't see a lot of hackers, and no deployable repeaters. I see the occasional pitcher, mostly from Nomads, but that's one faction. Warbands around corners aren't as much of a problem since I have flame throwers. I can either maneuver to flame them, shoot them from a distance, or move up, go into suppression and shoot them during impetus phase. Generally I only try to stay hidden top of turn 1, since I can go into suppression bottom of turn 1. I usually like to got second, if possible. If not I'll deploy differently, move up with the TAGs aggressively, and likely put them and 2 fusies into suppression. Right, but in my case I've got two 6-4 units to move up the board with. Anyway, like I said, I don't think this is an unstoppable list. You've pointed out a number of places it's weak. I brought the TAGs because I got into the game for those models, and enjoy playing them. I thought dual TAG was an interesting list, but unlikely to win against everything. I think some PanO HI are a far better choice for this tactic, say the Swiss Guard, or just the Cutter, or just the one of the cheaper PanO TAGs. What I'm wondering about is the hidden cheerleaders.
Could you post a picture or description of the buildings in question? The answer to your question depends heavily on how they're laid out. It sounds like you're playing with fully modeled building interiors, and if there are a large number of those in which to hide, then the potential "answers" are very narrow indeed.
This is with the MAS/Brandua buildings. In my case I had the Guard Tower, the Extended L each with a fusilier, and then a few of the Brandua buildings further down the field. Guard House: https://infinityharbour.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/H00008_Infinity_District5-GuardHouse_01.jpg Extended L: http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-conte...rt-Studio-District-5L-Product-Combination.jpg Bandua: https://banduawargames.com/en/designed-for-infinity/30402-l-building-pack.html Honestly, the Bandua aren't bad, it's the MAS buildings where there's a ladder or nothing that makes the issue really bad. If you need to either climb or go up a ladder, you're going to either be spending the entire order going up (to get shot in the face), or you're going to be without cover. By the second turn often these models will be on suppression fire. The stairs on the Bandua buildings take away some of these advantages, since the attacking player can get cover on the way up. However, since they're often situated pointing towards the deployment zone, they can take an extra order or two to get to the stairs.
Stop the joke please. Your kamau will die to any half decent hacker during your reactive turn. Even an AHD has tools to neutralise a single standard HD. How many orders do you think it needs to kill a single TR bot ? it's not a problem of long firelane, any TO infiltrator can do it in 1 or 2 orders at most. If i have some infiltrators and 15+ orders, i will have the orders to do so. If i run a limited insertion list, first you wont be able to remove me of 2 orders, and second, i expect a li list to have some good tools to bring down a tag. They can dodge FT rather well, they usually have PH13 or more. And you will really leave a TAG in sight just to shoot some cheap warbands ? But the fact that you can leave cheerleaders hidden is due to the fact that you count on some big rambos to do the job. You can either cut the head or cut the limbs. Sometimes cutting the head is easier and faster.
Those buildings look pretty typical, and there's a good number of ways to deal with models prone on those rooftops: - Speculative Fire, especially from enemy TAGs - Climbing Plus/Super Jump: Su-Jians love cheerleaders on roofs - Higher Ground: A infiltrating sniper will do just fine - Choosing Deployment: Grab the side with the higher terrain - Kill the TAGs: now spending orders to climb down is your problem ;) Realistically, if the Fusiliers are not participating in the fight, then a single Sierra Dronbot is the only thing standing between your TAGs and all kinds of nastiness. In fact, the Oniwaban your opponent brought seems like a good solution to both problems with some good positioning.
How so? Generally Brain Blast is the most common anti-hacker program, and the Kamau is BTS6, WIP13. Outside of Brain Blast, you generally need either a Killer Hacking Device, or a special upgrade program. Assault, HD, and HD+ have nothing better than Brain Blast. You're correct it's going to be at a disadvantage with an ARO, but it's a very rare model that has the upper hand in reactive turn, So I'm not seeing why it's a joke to attempt to put it out as a speed bump/deterant, or to use Exorcist on my active turn. No, I was talking about during the active turn, in response to their potentially ARO engaging around the corner, I'd be fine with leaving cover to shoot them instead. As for shooting up cheap warbands, it really depends. In some cases yes, in others no. I was reserving the Tikbalang so that I could put it down in a place where the HMG could make some approaches problematic. And I'd use the TR REM to shoot up warbands on the approach. Depending on my opponents list and deployment this could be pretty useful. Anyway, this is really getting off into the weeds, and really is best resolved by playing a few games.
This is part of why I frequently don't like how buildings with interiors play - hiding models where they can never be threatened becomes far too viable of a strategy. Forcing models to be deployed outside means that they are much more likely to be threatened by an enemy that can break through your lines, drop in via AD, etc.
But KHD is usually the most common HD, courtesy of being a cheap specialist option that can also be quite useful, plus they all have a marker state (at least cybermask) so surprise attack. Unless your meta never fields hackers, but that would explain how you can be successful with unsupported TAGs. Before you told me it would requires at least half a group orders to kill it, because it would be hidden far from your side. Well, whatever happens will depend on many factors. Which armies. The board. The sceneries. The objectives (sure, decapitation may be a bit harder with your list). Who wins the Lt roll and who decides what. I've told you several things that can happens. I'm not saying it will happens anytimes, nor that these ideas are always good ideas. It's always situational. But. You will make mistakes, everyone do. Your opponent may see it and use it. Perhaps you didn't even did a single mistake, but there was just something you didnt know. You believed he had a TO hidden somewhere ? Too bad, it was an AD this time, landing just in a very troublesome spot for you. Or you expected a TO sniper, and in fact it is a TO AHD. And he'll try overlord on your tag and succeed, then proceed to suicide jump it. Or go berserk. Or he used oblivion, and you wasted 3 or 4 orders on it because you kept failling your WIP 13 rolls. Or it was really a TO sniper, but somewhere you didnt expected. And he killed your TR, then your TAG, cause S7 is really hard to hide especially if the sniper can have some height. As for your fusiliers, they have combi. They may be weak, combi may be an unappealling weapon, but they can still kill things. And detect, even with wip 12. They can cover your back from AD, infiltrators, impersonators ... They are not only good to give orders, they can do basic things, and you need it. Don't just hide them, hide them so that they can cover your so precious tags. Or else, you'll be really surprise the first time you'll see what damages a real alpha strike can do.
