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Steel Phalanx Enomotarchos in N4

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by yoink101, Nov 18, 2020.

  1. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    if I’m reading everything right, you can make enomotarchos teams without characters now, right? I think you can’t mix dactyls, myrmidons, or thorakitae, but an all myrmidon link without an officer or character is legal now, yeah?
     
  2. TheDiceAbide

    TheDiceAbide Thank you for your compliance.
    Warcor

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    Thank seems to be the case (at least not requiring characters)!
     
    #2 TheDiceAbide, Nov 18, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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  3. StuporMundi75

    StuporMundi75 Member

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    I am not sure why you wouldn't be able to mix thorokatai and myrmidon. They both have enomatarchos? However, I suspect that is not what CB wants....
     
  4. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    enomotarchos, like haris and duo, still have the basic requirements of everybody beign of the same unit (with the exceptions listed in the fireteams charts) so I doubt they can mixed up
     
    chromedog likes this.
  5. StuporMundi75

    StuporMundi75 Member

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    Hahah, yes, just read stiopas comment in another thread. I thought it was too good to be true :)
     
  6. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    This is the case but I feel the question is when or why would you not want the characters.

    I can come up with a few example builds of the good use of no character teams below:
    All of these are rough base lines:
    Defensive Feuerbach 2 teams of 3 or 1 team of 4 example:
    47-70 pt 1.5-3 swc or 70 pt 3 swc
    1-2 thorakitai smg, 1-2 thorakitai feuerbach
    I like the idea of the 3 man version for anti tank and think it is better then Teucer.

    thorakitai take and hold: 54-67pt and 1.5 swc
    0-1 thorakitai forward observer (fo), 2 thorakitai light rocket launcher (lrl), 1 thorakitai hmg
    Run up and take a point then using the hmg to fight there and the lrl to make people cry in aro. If you need to push a button the fo is the cheapest option.

    flammenspear/adhesive death 60-80 pt
    3-4 dactyle flammenspear or adhesive launchers for the memes
    Memes and more meme and all the memes, because it can work.... some of the time... maybe

    murder dons 62-92 pt 1-2 swc
    1-2 myrmidon chain rifles, 1-2 myrmidon spitfires
    Rambo the spitfire till they die and then charge in and hope you murder in cc. This vs some of the older model sectitorials can work, vs the kamau sniper in a link it is a glorious death.

    Characters tend to add some ok to good utility such as Phoenix or Machaon or replace other models such as Eudoros or Alke which I feel can replace the spitfire or hmg in there respective team while adding something helpful.
    The other concern is thorakitai and dactyles are not ava, 6 and 4 respectively, total and to run 2 teams of them you may need characters mixed in.

    If you have other good ideas for non character links please share but these are the 4 bones I came up with.
     
  7. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    x4 Chain Rifle Myrmidon for a pack of murderous hoolingans loving the idea of reaching melee... 16pts each...

    x4 Light Missile Launcher with SMG Thorakitai for 16pts each...

    Thrasimedes can now form his own "tac team" with a Dactyl Doctor and Hyppolita...

    Acmon (has a duo) can link with Patroclus while Achilles can do so with Hyppolita and gain Eclipse smoke...
     
  8. Iver

    Iver Human Plus

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    3 chain rifle Myrms and 1 spitfire sounds amazing to me.

    A Thora link with a basic one, a Paramedic, a FO and a Feuerbach is 62pts and absolutely solid. I'll likely carry one very much like it every time i field SP. MAybe exchange the basic Thora with the LRL.
     
    #8 Iver, Nov 18, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020
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  9. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    These 2 have characters so the are not character less links. I feel there are a lot of good links with wild card options in the list.

    I see no reason to run 4 myrmidon chain rifles as 1 link but I could see running them as 4 guys running up with coordinated orders from different points on the board to act as missiles.
     
  10. yoink101

    yoink101 Chandra SpecOps Complaint Department

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    Characters are great. Sometimes I want them as point in a fireteam. Sometimes I want diomedes and penny.
     
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  11. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    This. There's nothing stopping you from running as before, but the freedom opened up is great.
     
  12. El tito Zylito

    El tito Zylito Active Member

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    i like the idea of 4 morons with chains trying to get into CC or maybe 3 chains and the myrmi spitfire

    ill try those fireteams for sure
     
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, it's the only way to move a Dactyl doctor (if you really need one, or have already deployed the 6 thoras you are allowed), and it's a second ODD+Fire template + medic + CC dedicated troop to Phoenix + Machaon + Chain Rifle Myrmidon; and since Thrasymedes has 360º visor, you don't miss much on not having Sixth Sense (a 4th member would be 20 extra points :S).

    Reason 1: Sixth Sense (ignore LoF and penalties to answer fire, ingnore enemy Stealth, ignore surprises)
    Reason 2: B2 Smoke
    Reason 3: Order & Command token efficiency (moving 4 troops repeteadly with a single order)
    Reason 4: you can't do it in Vanilla
    Reason 5, which is the truly important one: reach one target in melee, enjoy a Burst 4 CC21 +3/-3 DAM15 DA attack. Even if you are attacking a non-melee TAG (that can't burn all your troopers in a single template, for which smoke is used), those are 8 wounds that could be potentially inflicted, and considering you roll 1d20+4, there is a more than fair chance to crit.

    Them, or Achilles? That is the question. First, you have 4 regular orders instead of one (and possibly the Lt, and Frenzy) for 3pts more than the MULTI rifle Achilles (I'm allergic to the 2SWC Spitfire -now also AP- one, I confess, but with so many SWC discounts that will surely change), all of them with smoke that has B2, and get Sixth Sense. Sure, each wound means degradation to the pack, but you can sacrifice even half of it and still be a little less efficient (melee-wise) than Achilles.

    Or run both for the lulz, of course, and send them hunting hackers while Achilles draws the MSV hunters. 125 pts or so for 5 models is not all that expensive for the Greeks...
     
  14. D_acolyte

    D_acolyte Well-Known Member

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    You can move a dactyl doctor in a full dactyl fireteam and while you are moving up the board you can cover your approach with Flammenspeer. Not that I would but it is possible.

    How I see the roles of chain riffle myrmidons:
    a. guided missiles
    b. restricted choke point defense (chain rifles are only about 10 inches)
    c. counter attack
    d. filler for better guns

    You have stated you want to take 4 as one team to be a guided missile.

    This is a defensive rule and offers little bonuses to guided missiles, suicide charges and generally units that are out there to in the active turn trade there lives for the enemies. If you want them as defenders or mid fielders then yes Sixth Sense is good but they are not equipped for that.

    Normal smoke is really weak compared to N3. For instance MSV 1 is a normal role vs a smoke grenade not a contested. So if you both succeed your myrmidon takes a hit and the smoke goes down. I suspect the stock in MSV 1 ARO and attack models have gone up and we will see more of those then the MSV 2 because see through smoke is good enough even at the penalty. 1 Riot Grrl or Bolt MSR and your link will start loosing men in there charge. MSV 1 is not that rare and now messes up our day almost as much as MSV 2.

    This comment is true but it also limits your approach to 1 vector and once the leader is dead you have to spend points reforming it.

    Just because you can does not mean you should.

    This is true but I feel you are making a lot of assumption about enemy comp and table layout to make this happen. damage 15 vs most tags is only so so as vs an armor 8 tag (which is the normal) each dice only has 35% chance or wounding. Killing often helps but it also does not let you win.

    A lot of these issues have really easy solutions. Add a spitfire to gunfight while you approach. Add eclipse grenades to deal with MSV (means adding a character or officer). Add a specialist to press buttons so you can get points.

    As far as a bones of a fire team that can work 4 chain rifles are not effective. If you want to tell me you do it for the meme or lol then sure I can understand and get behind that. That was why I stated use 3-4 dactyls, is it strategically viable? Probably not but could it be fun? Sure.

    If someone runs the 4 dactyl link please let me know, I would recommend a comp of 3 flammenspeer and a doctor. Also take a probot be grabbing from baggage is now ZOC.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    First of all, sorry for the wall of text; second I'd like to point that:
    • Fireteam composition is not fixed in the list, specially now we don't need a hero per Enomotarchos. This 4 chain rifle myrm team might be simply spares for other fireteams, or fillers that were separated from their "parents".
    • While this fireteam is stupidly cheap for all the damage it can deal *if* reaches melee with something, 64pts is right on Achilles' cost, and he is more expensive than certain TAGs. To be fair, I'd pit this four against an Avatar instead of Achilles, just because they can smoke their advance from the Sepsitor-toting thing, and because It's unlikely an Avatar list will carry MSVs (aside from Ko Dali); maybe Yaogats start showing up, however (all the other MSV troops are short ranged, so our own MSV can hunt them from afar).
    • I've had to play campaigns with the greeks, meaning no heroes against CA armies. An officer, the Spitfire, and 2 fillers were the usual, and thoras were left unlinked as anti-infiltration/AD enemies. It wasn't fun, but possible... Now, not needing heroes for making fireteams gives much better options (the thorakitai have won a lot of points).

    Why? A LML Thora is shorter range, sure, but 3pts cheaper and doesn't require one order per model in the ZoC of the Baggage (so after a single ARO, you need to spend 3 full orders to reload all three flammerspeers), and can make more than a single B2 salvo... You want to spend 88pts for something 64 do more consistently, if at a shorter range?

    Weapon-wise, Dactyls are not something I see designed for shooting, but can hold their ground in a pinch (in fact, I think in N3 the only viable Dactyl fireteam was Hector + Dactyl Engineer + Dactyl Doctor).

    I would addt:
    • Smokers (vanilla, and ASS). Yeah, Aleph has great MSV2 troops that get a lot from those humble myrms-
    • Melee bodyguard (again, vanilla. More than once my Asura's butt was saved by them).
    • There is no limit to the amount of Enomotarchos links you can have. So yeah, you could have 3 Myrmidon Enomotarchos links if you want.
    This a "don't suprise me" rule. As in "no surprise attacks, no shooting from where I can't see you (specially from outside my ZoC), and no uncontested Triangulated Fire against my melee, thank you". Sure, 90% of it kicks in the myrm's reactive, but it removes problems that tie directly to why engage in melee a heavy unit and not caring if you wound (see last point).

    While not all and every enemy ARO will have an MSV, if that's a problem a Myrm Officer is the cheapest source of Eclipse smoke. Costs more than twice a chain rifle myrm does, and comes with the BSG (which I don't like how the template mode won't FtF and yet the weapon is costed nearly the same as a combi...and better than the SMG), but allows the option of running the vector with enemy MSV's the list seems not have any other tool to neutralize (like, say, Atalanta... or Drakios).

    Normal smoke is not the solution to almost everything that it was in N3, I agree, but it doesn't need to. And considering how I want to splat those myrms onto something that most likely has a template weapon (be it fire, EM, normal or Sepsitor), blinding the target so it can't shoot it is quite needed anyway. The only MSV toting TAG is the Marut...

    Sure, like any other link. Only Eudoros has Nº2. And now we can reform a link with no heroes, at least.
    But you can expose non-leaders first, or even smoke the path beforehand. As I mentioned before, the enemy MSV should be dealt with before exposing the hoolingans, however...
    Plus, not having Strategos 2 means moving troops between groups is completely dependant on Command Tokens; and then there is the option of placing a model in SF if you go second (Ajax FD, Achilles Hoplite, Andromeda, infiltrating Thrasymedes), removing 2 orders from the enemy, limiting to a single CT on their first turn (critically useful against vanilla armies in Biotechvore, for example); or to hold onto another model as reserve.
    What I mean is that the Command Tokens have too many uses to simply save for moving 4 missiles from different vectors that might not be even doable (I prefer to hunt down enemy MSV with thorakites, for example, or Agemas, normal or heroic).

    And *this* link advances on one (maybe two, depending on the terrain; most buildings and terrain allow for the fitreteam to split in two without breaking coherency, and even the Central Room can be entered by 2 doors at the same time by the fireteam), but there are 1-2 or even 3 other fireteams able to advance too. I specifically mentioned Achilles on one vector and this team on the other in my previous post...

    What I can do somewhere else, is not reason enough to do all the time... And believe me, I know what is to burn all four command tokens in a single turn doing coordinated orders, I prefer Vanilla Aleph.

    Oh, and there are now 2 Biotechvore (Biotechvore and Panic Room) missions in the ITS document, so order (and command token) eficiency needs to be considered. And you might need to reform other Myrm links

    Not really, the only assumption I made is that all 4 Myrms reach melee with something in a single move, which is kinda needed to ask the question of "what the hell can this mob of demented psychos do".

    Anyway, once those myrms are in melee with an enemy unit you can stop spending orders on them. If the target wants to attack any of the myrms, it will suffer their ARO, and that will happen even if the leader dies. Sure, you lose 6th Sense and can suffer Triangulated Fire attacks (otherwise, it's a -6 per allied model, and the -6 from the Myrms mymetism; Triangulated Fire negates all to a single -3, but failing means impact to the target; on the other hand, I think only Teucer has a weapon that is more detrimental to the target than to the myrms, since most Triangulated Fire able units carry Combi Rifles), but the target is inmovilized.

    And if it's a TAG, and you happen to have Scylla or Thamyris, a Pitcher means the TAG can't spend an order without having to choose between FtF a POS (or Oblivion, or IMM) or physical impacts. The options are there.
     
    RolandTHTG likes this.
  16. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    I'm contemplating a 3 LRL + Paramedic Thora link. Almost as memey as the 4 LRL link, but it has that 2B medkit, a model with 360 visor and button pressing capability at a budget 62pts
     
  17. Sobakaa

    Sobakaa Active Member

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    Not so sure it actually works like you think. In army7 only heroes have enomotarchos rule and army builder always has the most updated profiles. I'd say you still need heroes to form the fireteams.
     
  18. Hannibaliafun

    Hannibaliafun Active Member

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    That actually just changed today I think. It looks like they made a mistake initially.
     
  19. Axelius

    Axelius Not a Rogue AI

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    Huh, that is a real bummer. I guess it is fine for myrms who can still form teams with officers, but it is a real problem for Thorakitai who *must* have Acmon, Nesaie or Hector with them. EDIT: Thrasymedes can also form a link with them, but he especially feels like paying a 14pt link tax compared to the LRL Thora.

    In a way I can understand the theme of the sectorial with heroes having a key role, but at the same time I feel like it hobbles the faction by not having the characters stand on their own two legs, but have to be included to create fireteams.

    More importantly it makes the teams fragile, not being able to reform if the leader and hero gets knocked out.
     
    #19 Axelius, Nov 21, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  20. Methuselah

    Methuselah Well-Known Member

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    So nope. Turns out all the fun things are actually bugs after all. This is a feels bad for me. Was finally excited about Aleph and then CB reverses one of the best changes they made to SP. Bummer for me anyways.
     
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