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Stealth, Idle, Fireteams

Discussion in 'Rules' started by mittenninja, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    A fireteam with stealth activates and the link leader shoots, the other members cannot perform the BS attack and "are considered an Idle." For the purposes of stealth and provoking AROs, did they declare a BS attack (thus breaking stealth) or did they declare an idle (not breaking stealth)?
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    They declared BS Attack and perform an Idle.

    Stealth breaks.
     
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  3. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    They declared BS attack, but it is considered an idle. Why wouldn't it be considered an idle for stealth?
     
  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.

    Edit: my point being that Stealth kicks in when a Short Movement skill is declared, that hasn't happened.
     
    #4 inane.imp, Mar 9, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
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  5. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Yep, Stealth cares about declaration not what skill ends up being performed, just like cancelling Camouflage.
     
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  6. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    Sure.

    But the trooper is considered to idle, which is a short movement skill. Idle doesn't break stealth.

    The real question is what does "considered an idle" entail. Is the model considered to have declared an idle? Does it still declare a BS attack but act as if it idled?
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteams_in_the_Active_Turn

    However, all members of a Fireteam must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order or Entire Order as the Team Leader.
    Any Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, a Fireteam member cannot perform are considered an Idle. However, troopers will perform the Short Skills of that Order they are able to perform. In this situation, the other Fireteam members will perform their Order normally.


    So even though they end up idling, all members still Declare BS Attack and therefore cannot benefit from Stealth.
     
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  8. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    I understand that interpretation.

    But there is also the interpretation that since the other members are considered to have declared an idle, they treat all other interactions as if they declared idle instead of BS attack (including AROs and Stealth).

    I'm looking for a definitive ruling.
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No they're not considered "to have declared an Idle" that's not the wording at all.

    To benefit from Stealth you need to have declared a Short Movement skill or Cautious Move. The members of the Fireteam have not done that ergo they cannot benefit from Stealth.
     
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  10. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    Do you have confrimation that that is correct?

    (Just to be clear, I have no dog in this race, I just want to find a definitive answer)
     
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  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The rules are actually very clear, to use Stealth you need to Declare a short movement skill with no roll or Cautious Move. The rules don't care one jot what you end up performing.

    Likewise, all Fireteam members Declare the same skill, even if they end up performing something else like Idle.

    This is about as cut and dry as Infinity ever gets!
     
  12. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    I know entire metas that play it the opposite way and would say it is cut and dry as well.

    I'm not saying you are incorrect. I'm just saying it can be interpreted the other way. I'm just looking to see if there is any kind of confirmation one way or the other.

    After all, CB has ruled things opposite of how they have largely been played before.
     
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  13. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I know you're not the one pushing the position but I don't think you can interpret it any other way, both rules hinge on the Skill Declared, having that skill turn into an Idle doesn't change the Declaration.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    No we don't have independent confirmation that what the rules say is what the rules are supposed to say.

    You're putting the burden of proof the wrong way around.

    What Colbrook and I am describing is what the rules unambiguously say, if CB wants it to be played differently to that they'd need to clarify it: they haven't.
     
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  15. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    It isn't completely unambiguous.

    "Any Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, a Fireteam member cannot perform are considered an Idle."

    Not "the fireteam member is considered to perform an idle"
    Not "the fireteam member is considered to declare an idle"
    Either of those statements would be unambiguous, but since it doesn't say what the skill is considered an idle for the purpose of, it can be interpreted in two ways.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It is explicitly called out that all troopers Declare the same skill.

    So yes, if you read that line in isolation it is ambiguous but in the context of all relevant rules it is not.
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Most importantly:

    all members of a Fireteam must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order or Entire Order as the Team Leader.
    Any Short Skills of the Order, or Entire Order, a Fireteam member cannot perform are considered an Idle.

    So they may be considered Idle, but the Declared skill is still BS Attack, and Stealth only cares what you Declare
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Declaration is what matters for Stealth, Camouflaged etc, and Idle itself makes the distinction between declaring and performing:
    • The trooper is also considered to perform an Idle when he has declared a Skill not allowed by the rules. In such situation, the ammunition of Disposable weapons or pieces of Equipment is spent, too.
    My emphasis. There's no wriggle room in this one.
     
  19. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    That's what I was missing. The relevant text was in the idle skill not the fireteam rules. Thank you.
     
  20. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    Just to follow up with something,
    Since the wording for Holo1 is the same as far as canceling when declaring a non short move skill, any holo1 trooper in a fireteam that isn't the leader will drop out of Holo when the leader declares a bs attack, correct?