Stealth and Repeaters

Tema en '[Archived]: N4 Rules' iniciado por AdmiralJCJF, 6 Oct 2020.

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  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    Hey!

    Some small wording changes have the NZ meta freaking out about unstoppable Hackers.

    The suggestion is that Stealth never works on repeaters, so Hackers can always target any unit in their Hacking Area but out of their ZoC regardless of Stealth.

    This interaction required an FAQ in N3 and I suspect we need one again.

    But can anyone see a clear statement in N4 one way or the other?
     
  2. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    It turns out @ijw has responded to this already;

    upload_2020-10-6_12-31-12.png
     
  3. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    For what its worth. Since most sectorials can invest in a hacker and just slap it into some wild card link to get sixth sense and ARO anyone moving through repeaters. Its only vanilla that misses out. So the effect on the general game of hackers clogging up midfield is pretty mild.

    But its big to have stealth work on repeaters as it re-introduces the bullshit that is coordinated or even just linked stealthy hacker getting free attacks. Which I was excited to see fixed by having stealth not work on repeaters. So hoping it doesn't get re-written as stated by IJW.
     
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  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Oh man, are we adding stealth hacker shenanigans to the list of shit that is back in the game?

    Along with smoke/visor/ZoC and "zigzag Impetuous" I am starting to get a little depressed....
     
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  5. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    And ARO baiting is also still here, because apparently we can declare Shoot that goes to Idle for Move + Shoot of a Camo reveal, but can't for an Idle + Move within ZOC but out of LoF.
     
  6. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    Isn't Sixth Sense a lot more limited now? The requirement it's that "[t]he user is the target of an Attack."

    RAW I believe you're only ignoring stealth when attacked, e.g., a move-CC stealth guy can be BS'd at.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    No. It’s also mentioned in Stealth, it simply doesn’t work against anyone with Sixth Sense,

    094D7D4F-1548-46DD-807B-A1B67C50DB8C.jpeg
     
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  8. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    Hm, interesting. That's not in the stealth rule itself though, just the "important" box after. Is that also defining rules and not just providing interpretation? Shouldn't the "effects" bullet include a clause stating so?
     
    #8 bloodw4ke, 6 Oct 2020
    Última edición: 6 Oct 2020
  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    IMPORTANT boxes contain rules, it’s literally part of Stealth. You’re thinking of REMEMBER boxes, which are just reminders of actual rules text.
     
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  10. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Did you miss the last bullet point of Sixth Sense (page 112)?
    ► Stealth is not effective against Troopers with the Sixth Sense Special Skill.
     
  11. bloodw4ke

    bloodw4ke Well-Known Member

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    IJW answered it definitively, but, nope, I didn't miss it. However, that clause is listed as an effect under the requirements to use the skill ("the user is the target of an Attack"). "Requirements" are addressed as follows in the rulebook:

    Req.png

    Hence RAW Sixth Sense does not grant the ability to ignore stealth unless the user is the target of an attack. Looking at Stealth, nothing gives this either except for the "Important" box that follows the rules box.

    It also makes the clause in Sixth Sense pointless

    To be clear I am perfectly fine with Sixth Sense ignoring Stealth, but I feel there are needless templating issues. Why not just move the last bullet in Sixth Sense to Stealth instead (adding the part about deployables)? Much cleaner that way.

    SS-ST.png
     
    #11 bloodw4ke, 6 Oct 2020
    Última edición: 7 Oct 2020
  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Or, as I've previously suggested, use nested bullets when there are specific triggers for certain parts of the skill effects:

    SIXTH SENSE (automatic, optional)
    Requirements:
    • None
    Effects:
    • Stealth is not effective against a trooper with the Sixth Sense Special Skill.
    • If the user is the target of an attack
      • Allows the user to respond to attacks (and only attacks)...
      • Other bullet points that are specifically about responding to attacks.
     
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  13. Xagul82

    Xagul82 Well-Known Member

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    so stealth works not on repeaters correct?

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  14. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    RAW, no. But I think we are waiting on on word for whether that's intended or not it getting rewritten to allow stealth to work through repeaters.
     
    #14 Sabin76, 7 Oct 2020
    Última edición: 8 Oct 2020
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  15. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower

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    We aren't waiting on word.

    They have stated that it isn't intended.

    We are only waiting on the errata.
     
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  16. Xagul82

    Xagul82 Well-Known Member

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    But sixth sense works through repeaters?

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  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Re-read and you are right. I've corrected my post.
     
  18. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    stealth don't work against 6th sense troopers, it doesn't matter range... that has been like that also in n3. On the other side, repeaters will not be useful by themselves against stealthed hackable units, just wait a bit to see how they errata it
     
  19. Xagul82

    Xagul82 Well-Known Member

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    So reading the rules again, a mine will trigger when a unit with stealth passes it's zoc but the repeater by it self does nothing than expanding the zoc of the hacker who can use his sixth sense through the repeater.

    During the process of writing it I got it[emoji854]

    Thank you!

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  20. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Small point of clarification... Mines don't trigger in their ZoC, they trigger in their "trigger area", which is actually slightly larger than a ZoC would be, since the small teardrop is longer than 8", but also blocked by total cover.
     
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