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Starmada feels a bit... underwhelming. And here's how to fix that

Discussion in 'O-12' started by Sharrankar, Nov 23, 2020.

  1. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Active Member

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    So, N4 has been out for a while now and people have been testing things - the general consensus seems to be that Starmada is underwhelming due to a few obvious problems, and, being a very recent sectorial, with awesome models on top of that, it's rather dissapointing.

    Together with people on the Infinity Discord server (thanks for your help!) we've created a small list of things that could potentially be improved/implemented in Starmada to help this awesome sectorial compete on better terms with the rest of the armies in the game

    Things are listed in no particular order and are mostly excerpts from our discussion - maybe CB will look favourably at them and somehow acknowledge them

    • Long range AP in a fireteam is needed for Starmada, preferably in a profile with a visual mod. Epsilon MSR in a link would be good, as would a MULTI HMG on pretty much anything, beta ML as mentioned would be all right, a MULTI MMR with +DMG would be tolerable. The PsiCOp is the closest thing we have in the sectoral and it is too flimsy/ low damage to do the job well
    • A basic problem is their inability to defend. One way to fix is by improving their offensive capability, another alternative is to give better ARO/ area denial tools
    • The reason you take a sectoral is because it is more order efficient. In exchange, you lose some profiles you might like. Starmada is not efficient. You can spend an entire turn moving up with Hector/ whatever, shoot two things, and then you must retreat because your fireteam is too flimsy.
    • Ava 1 of Lynx would help greately
    • Make Betatroopers linkable with Nyokas; Bronzes and Bluecoats with Kappas;
    • Give the Bronze a Missile Launcher loadout; Make the Nyoka HMG maybe an AP HMG; basically they need more AP and they need to be able to link their more expensive shooters with cheaper orders, and they need to be able to do so in a way that doesn't mean you are getting conflicting movement skills
    • Bronze gets a ML, Nyoka gets BS 13 and an AP HMG, Betatrooper can join Nyoka teams, Bronze is Wildcard, Hector is Wildcard
    • Give Nyokas BS 13 and dogged
    • A Crusher minelayer koala profile
    • Riotshield tinbot with +3 arm
    This is a loose list of things me and others would love to see improved - it prolly won't happen, but one can dream, eh?
     
  2. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Every sectorial has its strengths and its weaknesses. Starmada's weaknesses are pretty front and center, but they're not insurmountable.
    Lacking long range firepower, lacking area denial, lacking marker states, these are the three biggest issues for sure, and early in an edition that drastically improved the power curve of other factions it does feel pretty underwhelming as a whole.
    Still, gonna stick it out and see if I can't find some combinations that make them work. :)
     
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  3. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Active Member

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    That's totally true that every sectorial has its weaknesses - although what you have listed is like most of Infinity gameplay lol
    Starmada, while being decently aggressive, has a problem of a complete lack of speed bumps and decent ARO - anyone who wants to get into their deployment zone can get there easily and really efficiently too
    There will be combinations that will work - alpha striking with Andromeda for example, or running a strong Hector core (although with 1 combat group not being protected from getting their two orders stolen it might be harder), but the rest of everything will feel very lackluster
     
  4. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Yeah, 100%. Going second is gonna suck until we can figure out the right combinations - i've tried a few, like for eg. I found that a Bronze in a full core is a pretty good speedbump, but only at up to 24" range. Another decent one is sticking a Crusher or Casanova in suppressing fire at the start with a command token.
    Still pretty poor overall, they're single pieces that can be easily bypassed or avoided by an opponent.
     
  5. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Active Member

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    Exactly - dealing with a single non-camo trooper with no hidden deployment/camo AROs isn't hard, because the path to this trooper is clear as day

    Personally I think that Bronze is overrated - what is the good ol' "shoot you till you're dead" weapon? HMG. With ammo N. Sure, there's a lot of AP stuff going around, but Bronze as a active turn piece (where his total immunity could shine against all the weird ammo types) loses to Beta - lack of mimetism hurts him in active turn, and in reactive his total immunity usually doesn't make a difference
     
  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    My feelings are Starmada are that they are pretty good but that they feel really unwieldy in terms of link options, and that I don't really want to run almost any of their links, and that most of their best options can be taken in Vanilla as well... so I'd rather just play Vanilla

    And that doesn't make them bad it just makes them kind of meh.

    And really, it's not even that any of the units are not good. I actually like them all, I would change Nyoka to have Dogged and BS 13 so they reflected the background more than anything, and I would give them an AP HMG just because I feel AP is so key these days. I'd give the Bronze a ML and make it linkable with Nyoka because they both have C+ and it just feels like it would fit, and because again Starmada lack AP. And I'd make Betatroopers linkable with them because again, C+.

    Other than that, they're pretty much fine? I just don't want my most viable link in Starmada to basically be a core of Kappas that generate orders but are basically a bit useless OR a core of Betatroopers who are my entire order sink. I want a nice middle ground too. And I want access to more long range AP options.

    Like I'd maaaaybe give the Epsilon a cool link option just because otherwise they feel a bit lame, but I'd limit it to a Haris. They don't really need to be made SUPER POWERFUL they just need to be a bit more spicy and exciting in terms of options I feel.
     
    #6 Solar, Nov 23, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
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  7. Commoner1

    Commoner1 Well-Known Member

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    Starmada would've been great in N3. But as a N4-sectorial with the increased emphasize on long range, ARM and AP, they are rather weak. I can't bring myself to build Starmada lists, when I can just make a Vanilla List with two Lynx and the same amount of Crushers and Andromeda as I would do in a Starmada list.

    Starmada has basically the same problem as Imperial Service. There is just no incentive to play it, because the link options are not good and you have more variety by going vanilla.
     
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  8. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you there, I think in N3 the lack of AP was not a big deal, and the Red Fury profiles they have all over would have been really good. These days it aint really cutting the mustard.
     
  9. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    If you think Starmada lacks decent speedbumps, you must not be using Crushers in Supp Fire much.
     
  10. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
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    I've been having fun and success with Starmada. The only real request I'd have is to allow BetaTroopers and Nyokas to link together, since they share the Climbing Plus theme. Other than that, I really like the tools that this sectorial brings.
     
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  11. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
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    The Crusher LRL is great, too. I can't count how many times I've held it in reserve and put my opponent in a terrible situation. Often, they'll spend their entire first turn trying to dislodge her. She usually dies in the end, but 1 model for 10 wasted orders is a trade I'll definitely take.
     
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  12. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Active Member

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    we're talking about a single unit in suppressive fire - you can literally walk past it, cover it with smoke or just outrange it like it's nobody's business
    also, a single crusher with LRL sounds like a perfect pray for any kind of HMG or spitfire - and if it's not contesting anything of higher value, than it can be ignored
    if crusher LRL is able to see a cheerleeder link member and the hmg/spitfire in this link would need more than order to get into position to shoot him so that he'd get a relatively safe shot at the link than imo, your opponent has not deployed properly
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Never underestimate the value of putting units in awkward angles to slow enemies down. Moving a Spitfire up across the board just to deal with one LRL that's causing your specialists problems is perhaps not the best order efficiency.

    How is an AP HMG or premium Multi Sniper in a core somehow required to make a sectorial have good long range game?
     
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  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Honestly I don't think that actually you need to have those things to have a good long range game

    But I think that these days you do need access to SWC weaponry with AP ammo and Starmada lacks that outside things that you can take in Vanilla anyway which I think is the key point. It's perfectly valid to point at the Zeta, but if I am running a Zeta, why not play Vanilla?
     
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  15. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
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    Yes, a fully linked HMG/Spitfire could gun down a Crusher LRL, but if they spend 5 orders moving across their DZ to get to you and take them out, then it's still a win in terms of ARO. ARO pieces die all the time, but as long as they waste orders, they've done their job. In other words, don't deploy right in front of a linked HMG
     
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  16. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Active Member

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    Well, if the spitfire wants to move up across the board anyway than that's not a problem - and they usually will want to move up

    Also, regarding the second part - I think you're missing the point - AP HMG etc are some of the possible fixes for Starmada, not the only ones
    I've mentioned other things that might help them too - in general, from what I've gathered, people feel that Starmada's strengths are not big enough to compensate their weaknesses
     
  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, but again if I wanted to take a Crusher in Suppression Fire, I can do that in Vanilla

    I think that's personally key to my view; there's plenty of great options in Starmada. Crushers, Raptors, Nyoka Parachutists, Varangians... but the only link that is genuinely engaging is the Betatrooper Haris (the Betatrooper Core is also good but like, nearly 200pts) and that's kind of a shame.
     
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  18. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust
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    I can totally respect that. It definitely won't work for some people. For me, I really enjoy playing aggressive with Beta links, but even just the Beta Haris is enough for me.
     
  19. Sharrankar

    Sharrankar Active Member

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    But then, what is it that you're countering? Warbands that smoke dodge on 16-17s? A second offensive link that can still blast you to smithereens? The problem is, there are so many soft and hard counters to a single Crusher that I just don't feel they're worth taking. However, we have completely different metas, so they might work in your meta for example.

    But the problem of links, as mentioned above, still remains - vanilla does most of the things better (Crushers are really cool in vanilla imo, because they can be supported by razors minelayers/gangbusters and other lovely chaps cloggin the midfield)
     
  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I played against Starmada last weekend. Two Crushers held important pinch-points, so that wherever I went I had to deal with one. The more important pinch-point also had a Kappa linkteam nearby, including a hacker to give them options. One of them could easily have been a Tian Gou, I wouldn't know because I couldn't get past the stupid Crusher and link... so I went elsewhere and picked on his more vulnerable pieces, but they ended up trading for more points than it took to remove them.

    Crushers do make great roadblocks, and they are persistent little buggers. In a sectorial with links that can hide surprise Jammers, it's a good setup.

    As an opponent, that Tian Gou with Sixth Sense makes a -lot- of difference in how I'm going to attack.

    Also: Parvati wildcard... are you kidding me?!? That's a reason to play the sectorial itself. A 2W-doctoring/Engineer +3 WIP 15 specialist that moves 6-2... yeah, "disappointing." Right.
     
    #20 Savnock, Nov 23, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2020
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