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Spiral vs TAG?

Discussion in 'Spiral Corps' started by Dreilide, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. Dreilide

    Dreilide Well-Known Member

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    I faced my first TAG list with Spiral recently, and found myself in a bit of a conundrum. Most of my standard overwatch options didn't do much to stop his rampage (B5 HRMC on an ARM8 Zeta), and while the AP Marksman Draal was eventually able to deal with it in active, it was pretty costly for me and I should have lost the game. I'm trying to come up with options aside from throw a Draal at it, as that can't be the only answer to EVERY problem.

    After thinking about it, most of the ablative ARO options that are typical for me in Spiral (Helots, triad Viral Sniper, HFT Chaksa etc) would crumple to a TAG attack with little chance of even damaging on my part. The lack of heavy weapon options in the faction became pretty apparent to me at this point, and while the Panzerfaust Kosuil has become a pretty staple include, I didn't come up with too many other options.

    Has anyone had strong successes against TAG lists, or how do you anticipate preparing for them?
     
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  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    You're almost never going to stop a TAG in the reactive turn. AROs are only about slowing the opponent down, and almost never actually killing them. So with that in mind, some things will work better than others.

    1) Deploy helots as limited camo. This is because now if an opponent fails a discover, the camo marker sticks, and he has to split burst if he gets close enough to see another unit as well. This increases the odds of losing a f2f roll.

    2) Reex K1 MMR. The Kriigel will make room for you to get into your good range band for this, so ideally you can engage between 8 and 16 inches where the odds are the best for your Reex (B1 at 12-13 for most TAGs vs B4 at 11 for your Reex). This thing shreds armored units.

    3) B2 Heavy Flamethrowers. Spiral has a lot of these, and they're pretty good against TAGs, especially on a cheap unit. I'm not sure why you wrote these off so quickly. There's a 50% chance you wound with one of these per order against ARM8.

    4) Tie it up with an Igao. The first attack from an Igao inflicts -12 in CC, and each successive attack inflicts -6, whereas the Igao is hitting on a 25 with DAM13 DA. The important thing here is that your odds of losing the f2f are very low the Gamma both has to pass his roll on a 10 and you add 5 to your die, meaning this can only happen if you roll 1-4 and the Gamma rolls 6-10 and still beats you. Your odds of critting are enough that a turn of pumping orders into an Igao should remove it.

    5) Kiuutan E/Mauler or E/Mitter. A Kiuutan in the enemy's frontlines can easily get behind a TAG that has moved too aggressively for an unopposed E/Mitter shot. Honestly this should probably be higher up on my list, just the risk of getting E/M'd can make a tag play much more passively.

    Most of my spiral lists do all of these things except take an Igao. But yes, in general I would use the Draal AP MMR. Tricoring means you hit on 16/19 while imposing a -3, and if you get up into the right rangeband/position using a Kriigel you are wounding about half of your hits, and you should be hitting a lot.
     
  3. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Active Member

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    I don't think Spiral lack heavy fire, what we lack is long distance fire.
    Starting from the point that a TAG is something you want to fight in your active turn.In addition to Viral we have good access to breaker ammo. Submachine gun is another good option, but they have low range, lucky we have it on our Infiltrator/Impersonator. The Igao with boarding shotgun for it's cost can have some good result. If you get close enough he goes to BS 17 and give a -6 to the enemy (or a -9 for the range band), after that he can engage the TAG in CC.

    The difficult part is that alot of this option need to get pretty close to the TAG the PRO is that in this case you could probably take the TAG off cover and be in the negative RNG band of his weapon.
     
  4. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    As noted, the Igao (either with BS, either in Close Combat) can eventually deal with the TAG.

    Also, if you manage to keep it locked in Close Combat, the oponent has to expend his Orders during his Turn to kill the Igao, while you are able to complete the mission and ignore the TAG.
     
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  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget the Igao's Stun Grenades!

    If you use them with Speculative Fire, the Igao still hits on a -3 (13 PH +3 range - 6 Spec = 10),
    while the TAG Dodges on -12 (16 PH -6 TAG -3 noLoS -3 Surprise = 4) vs the frist nade, then -9 (for 7s) on subsequent ones.
    And then it has to BTS save twice vs damage 15. (like a 70% chance to stun it)

    I think this is even better because with TAGs it is not about the first wound, it is about the last wound.
    And as soon as it is stunned, the Igao or whomever has an easy job.
    I recommend the Draal Triad to go melee:
    D-Charges burst 3 vs a TAG that can only dodge at -9 (TAG + stunned) doesn't sound like fun for the TAG!
     
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  6. Cothel

    Cothel Well-Known Member

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    This guy looks like the thing to use against TAGs. I'm sad I can't use the good anti-TAG profiles in Tohaa.

    Cube Jager also has an E/Mitter and you can sneak him on from the side. Gonna have to try that one in Tohaa some time...
     
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  7. Zachilles

    Zachilles Active Member

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    I haven’t tested it yet but the boarding shotgun panzerfaust Kosuil has been calling out to me to stick him in a tri-core.

    I know the Draal is great and I don’t disagree but that Kosuil solves a lot of spirals problems. The Bs 15/18 panzerfaust can scare heavy armor in active and reactive turn. Your lsgl Kriigel can get it up to that sweet bs21 range and it can still carry a SymbioMate. Also most spiral lists are packing plenty of baggage if you want to get in a prolonged panzer fight.

    Like I said it’s untested right now but that’s my thought for dealing with TAGs atm.
     
  8. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Wut?
    No, the Kriigel cannot carry a Symbiomate, you probably meant another trooper.
     
  9. Zachilles

    Zachilles Active Member

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    I’m talking about the Kosuil
     
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  10. Cothel

    Cothel Well-Known Member

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    I have killed an Avatar with a K1 Combi Kosuil before. True, a brave HFT Chaksa gave his life to remove the ODD (and a point of STR) first, but then the Kosuil chewed that Avatar up with K1.
     
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  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Apropos of this, I played a double TAG list (Jotum and Seraph, lead by Joan) into a spiral corps army yesterday. He broke his teeth on me badly in his first active turn, but then we re-racked and spent about twenty minutes puzzling out a play that kept him in the game. I'd repair both TAGs multiple times, but the relevant kills that demonstrated Spiral's anti-TAG capabilities were probably:

    - Seraph was brought down the first time by a sratuscloud, tricore draal backed up by a kriigel smoke LGL that spent a lot of orders maneuvering it on a wide flank to catch the suppressing fire Seraph in the open. The AP marksman rifle took all the remaining orders to drop the seraph unconscious, but succeeded.
    - Jotum was brought down in later in the game (after the re-played spiral turn that killed the seraph) by running a Clipsos around behind it in marker state then stealthing into melee. This let the preceptor and beasts make a mad dash upfield and into melee, at which point the Jotum punched a cat and the handler electric pulsed it then just ripped it apart with unopposed viral CCW hits.

    The cheeky bugger also had two Kiuutans with e/maulers but they died keeping his primary force alive in the face of a limited insertion TAG alpha.
     
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  12. Zachilles

    Zachilles Active Member

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    So as the TAG player was there anything that concerned you or that you were paying extra attention to knowing you were going up against spiral?
     
  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    When attacking: Helots mostly. Getting blase about AROs from hit mode rockets when moving out of cover is an easy way to rapidly lose a TAG to bad dice, especially a lighter ARM one like a seraph.

    When defending: the draal and preceptor. The table and scenario made it just a little bit hard for me to have the TAGs mutually supporting one another which in the end is what led to both their deaths, I think. I actually had the preceptor properly pinned down though until that exceedingly cheeky clipsos kneecapped the jotum. I knew better than to give it a clear run on the Jotum because I've personally hunted very big game with preceptors when playing tohaa myself.
     
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  14. spielervier

    spielervier New Member

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    What I typically do is to either isolate them with Eraser or use my "Tank-Hunter Triad" with at least these two profiles (plus, in my case, often a Krigel with Smoke and Mirrorball to get to the right spot or a doctor option to pick up Aelis in case of wounds):

    Spiral Corps
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]2
    HATAIL AELIS KEESAN K1 Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Flash Pulse, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
    TAAGMA (Tri-Core) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)

    1 SWC | 50 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Aelis then hits with Triangulated Fire having Burst 4 on flat BS12 (12 - 3 for Triangulated + 3 for Link Bonus / no further mods) up to 48" with K1, ignoring Armor, forcing a Damage 12 ARM-Roll on Hit. As this ignores to-hit modifiers as well as ARM, this combination helps against TO / ODD tags like Avatar or Cutter, but also against armor-heavy TAGs like Jotum.
     
    #14 spielervier, Sep 16, 2019 at 1:42 PM
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2019 at 3:42 PM
  15. Achelon

    Achelon Member

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    I'm not sure, but I'd say that when using Sensor: Triangulated Fire, you cannot apply the +3 BS for Link Team, as that's a bonus to BS, and Sensor: Triangulated Fire specifies that it's a shot with -3 BS and ignoring all other modifiers.

    So Aelis would shoot 4 times, but with BS9, not 12.

    But if I'm wrong, someone correct me as I haven't played this combo because of this.
     
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  16. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    SENSOR: TRIANGULATED FIRE
    EFFECTS

    • Allows the user to declare a BS Attack with one of his BS Weapons against a target within LoF by making a BS-3 Roll, ignoring all other applicable MODs (Range, Cover, Special Skills such as Camouflage, TO, ODD...).

    FIVE MEMBER FIRETEAM BONUS

    The Five member bonus is a MOD, so I guess it doesn't affect Triangulated Fire.
     
  17. Achelon

    Achelon Member

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    What I thought, so Aelis shoots on 9s. Not so good then. I guess it would've been quite op to have someone shooting on 12s either K1 or Viral ammunition independently of cover, camo or stuff like that.
     
  18. Khalipo

    Khalipo Active Member

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    The problem shooting on 9s is the avatar and the cutter shoot back on 15s...
     
  19. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    In addition to the above, Entire Order Skills don't benefit from the Fireteam Burst bonus, this includes Triangulated, Speculative, and Intuitive attacks.
     
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Keep in mind they shoot back on 'a' 15, so the odds are bad (not in your favor) but not horrible. You're definitely going to die before you win that gunfight. This absolutely wouldn't be my first choice for shooting even in Tohaa (flanking gao-rael smoke shots seem like they would be more effective here), but there are situations where this would be your best option (and most of them involve you already being really far behind).

    The big issue I see is getting there in the first place. You have to stand in front of it and survive non-Triangulated Shots to have a chance of making the triangulated ones (unless you do some memey LoF blocking with your own TAG which would be way more orders than it is worth).
     
    #20 meikyoushisui, Sep 19, 2019 at 5:00 AM
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2019 at 5:06 AM