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Special Dodge and sixth sense ARO

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Tanan, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Tanan

    Tanan Member

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    Throwing smoke (special dodge) isn’t an attack, but can benefit from speculative fire and surprise shot rules. 6th Sense can only be used against attacks.

    Question: Trooper A is camouflaged and behind enemy trooper B. Trooper B has 6th Sense level2. Trooper A places a smoke grenade so that trooper B is inside the template. Trooper B can’t declare BS attack ARO, but can declare Dodge. Not sure about the modifier. -3? -6?
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Any trooper can Dodge when affected by a Smoke template. It will be a normal roll and 6th Sense will ignore the -3 penalty for no LoF.
     
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  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    throwing smoke is a BS-Attack, with all its effects. The "special dodge" thing is for when the template blocks LoS, for it to be FtF roll
     
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  4. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Also the dodge won't be a face to face roll with the smoke throwing

    Yes but it does not have the attack label (which is why you can have a friendly trooper under the template)
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    because it is not an order, but more another label.

    The order used with smoke is "bs-attack"
     
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  6. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but sixth sense is triggered by the label "attack", not a specific skill. Smoke BS-attack don't have the label attack (if it had, you wouldn't be able to target your own troops) so it's a bit touchy

    I will go with 6th sense allows to ignore -3 to dodge as RAI but it's borderline with RAW

    There was a discussion dedicated to the side effect of "smoke bs attack does not have the attack label" : https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/impetues-order-and-smoke.26383/ (is it legal on impetuous order, to use when stun...). RAW on smoke need a complete re-writing
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just ignore the requirements for Sixth Sense, the skill literally straight up breaks if you don't.

    The effect that ignores the -3 MOD for LOF is distinct and separate from the effect that allows you to react to attacks without LOF. Since smoke isn't an attack, this means you will be able to Dodge, but not shoot back, when you are touched by the template from an enemy not in your LOF.
     
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  8. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    What? there is no "smoke bs-attack" order. It is only bs-attack. The same whay there is not viral-bs-attack, or da-bs-attack. You declare an order, and the label "attack" is only for orders. What can be argued is that, with smoke, you are not forced to take an enemy trooper as objective, so if you aim to the floor and the template doesn't touch the enemy, then that enemy cannot use 6th sense (well, he could if you are in his zone of control, but that's another topic I think).
     
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  9. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    If you prefer instead of "smoke BS attack" let's say "BS attack using smoke" does not have the Attack label. So "BS attack using smoke" is not an attack (as written in the smoke rule, which is the reason why you can target friendly trooper with it). Consequences of this are discussed in the previously linked thread (being able to BS attack with smoke even stunned...)

    Or you can keep quibbling the wording of "smoke bs attack" or "BS attack using smoke"...

    I agree that is the best thing to do. FAQ should simply remove the requirement bullet point.
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    there is no diferenciation for BS attack using smoke and any other use. It is an attack because BS attack is. There are other implications when the enemy is using smoke: you can dodge in normal die without ftf against someone using smoke, you can affect with smoke friendly troopers (because the faq overrules, instead of creating an errata...),you can do ftf rolls against different troopers at the same time and so. But I cannot find anywhere were it says "it looses the attack label"
     
  11. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    You are wrong here. Using smoke in a BS attack cancel the "attack" label of the BS attack skill. It's written in big in the link I provided.

    Here is the quote (sadly the picture appears small and you need to click it to read it) :
    As IJW said it's burried (as many thing in the rules, this point is not in the main part but burried in a sub-paragraph about something else), but it's written, emphasis mine :

    Certain weapons that use Smoke Special Ammunition allow the user to use the Speculative Fire Common Skill. In that case, the Common Skill Speculative Fire works normally, even though it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack.
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Arkhos94 looks more like the actual sentence that said that using smoke weapons isn't an attack was deleted in a redraft of the rules, and that reference to it was left in.

    I recommend treating smoke grenades as an attack, the game gets too stupid if you don't, and the language around it is very unclear. There's nothing mutually exclusive about a "special dodge" and an attack, really.
     
  13. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    sorry, but even if it is IJW's word, I cannot use that as ruling in any tournament, and I don't spect to see any TO using it like that. Only wiki or FAQ/errata, and we should be limiting ourselves to that. Why? because we cannot be digging in the forum like that, specially when the FAQs document is newer than that post, and that answer was not put in the official document or in the wiki. The result will be the same thought, but giving explanations that are more "interpretations" than rules will bring worse problems. Is better to explain the correct use of the tools we have, and there is no "bs smoke attack" or nothing similar, there is the special dodge label that has some effects, and the no-objective, which has others.
     
  14. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    IJW word and a direct quote of the rules (let's not forget the rules as written) :
    "and not an attack" leave little space for interpretation other than "BS attack with smoke not being an attack"

    RAI I would think like you but RAW are quite clear about BS attack using smoke not being an attack, so I'm not 100% sure which way to go
     
  15. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    if the rule is not in FAQ/errata document or wiki, I don't know anybody that will follow it. That's the problem. IJW has access to wiki, and direct contact with CB, ok, then why, if that "answer" was previous to the last FAQ document, why is not in there?

    that "not an attack" is missleading, because is refering to the special dodge and changes some rules, but not all rules. It whould have been easier to just say "weapons with the special dodge have the dodge label instead of attack", but instead, they went with some roundabout way to explain it without taking out the attack label.
     
  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    You know he’s quoting directly from the wiki, right?
     
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  17. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    he is quoting a part that doesn't says that looses the attack label from the bs-attack and also saying that is not a bs-attack but another type of order "smoke bs-attack". If that is another kind of order because is not an attack, then we are not doing bs-attack? then smoke doen't get the +3 bs bonus from 5-man fireteam?
     
  18. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Should I put "it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack." in bold, underline red and font 48 so you can see it ?

    RAW are "BS attack using smoke is a special dodge and not an attack".

    Not being an attack is necessary for smoke being usable on friendly trooper (or on the throwing trooper himself)

    But it create weird interaction (smoke being usable while stunned or not activating sixth sense for example). As said above, I think it should count as an attack for the purpose of activating Sixth Sense (or the requirement of sixth sense should be removed) because that's the rules as intended (but here that's only an opinion)

    a) I never said that
    b) I have specifically been using "BS attack using smoke" instead of "smoke BS attack" in my last 3 post (out of 5) so there could be no doubt I'm not saying that

    You are the only one here writing about a special kind of BS attack. Please stop putting your word in my mouth.


    Fireteam bonus is linked to the use of the skill BS attack, not to the label "attack" of this skill (or its absence). Quote from the wiki :

    In the Active Turn, the Team Leader gains a +3 MOD to the Attribute used to perform BS Attack Rolls (either BS, PH or WIP), and a +3 WIP MOD to Discover Rolls.
     
    #18 Arkhos94, Nov 5, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    please, put where it is related that with the label and not a clarification related to the "special dodge".

    well, yes, you said that you could stop using it like that... while from the beggining I said that smoke is normal Bs attack.
     
  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It says "not an attack". How could it be more clear ?

    Both the "attack" from the attack label and the "attack" from "not an attack" even link to the same page regarding skill label

    I never said it was a different kind of BS attack, I said it's a BS attack that loose the attack label due to its smoke amunition (since my first post in this thread)

    In short : BS attack skill but no attack label because "its not an attack"

    Please stop quibbling about a wording I used once and corrected when you misunderstood it :
     
    #20 Arkhos94, Nov 5, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019