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[Solved] When do I check ZoC for sixth sense?

Discussion in 'Solved Rule Questions' started by k104agi, Jun 8, 2018.

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  1. k104agi

    k104agi Member

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    Hello, it's been a while.
    This time it's about sixth sense L1 and the timing of checking ZoC.

    Say, Enemy model A declares his first short skill. and then I think he's in my ZoC. but delaying aro with sixth sense without checking ZoC seems bit weird.

    Ive checked ZoC measuring FAQ but it is about 'AROs' needing ZoC, like change facing or reset. there is no explanation about ZoC check timing with 6th sense. If I use the unrelated FAQ then it would be very bad in rulewise - i.e) I delayed aro eith 6th Sense though it is found wrong after checking ZoC later in resolution step - but I already benefited from it(delaying aro)? Clearly this would be wrong.

    So when do I check(measure) ZoC to activate sixth sense L1, to benefit from the effect? thanks in advance.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You guess at declaration, and measure at resolution. If you guessed wrong, then too bad your skill fails and becomes idle because you failed to declare ARO at first opportunity.
     
  3. k104agi

    k104agi Member

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    thanks for the reply.
    but how about this case?
    ex)enemy model and my model sees each other clearly. they seem to be in 7~10 inch range. enemy model moves in first, and I don't know clearly he's in my ZoC or not after first move. but I delay aro to choose best aro option later. enemy declares 2nd skill first. then I declare aro. In this case I already used and benefited from sixth sense L1(delaying aro) even if later my model is found not being in ZoC, if I don't check range while declaring skill. this may be abuse of sixth sense L1.
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Your ARO will become an Idle because it wasn't legal to delay it.
     
  5. k104agi

    k104agi Member

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    @Mahtamori and @ijw thank you for the reply.
    Is below the reference of yours?

    from Order expenditure sequence:
    If the Player declares a Skill and, when he applies its Effects, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is considered null.

    If so, this is because sixth sense L1 requirements are not met, that I understand.

    I like the fun of choice & sequence Infinity offers, but things look getting more complicated the more I dig the rules!
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    When this came up a few years ago, CB had a choice of either maintaining the integrity of the no-premeasure rule or maintain the integrity of how you gain orders or know you gain an order. They chose the latter and then later reversed this decision.

    Know that regardless of which they pick, it will have unintended consequences so they chose for ZoC orders to be more equal to max-ranged BS Attacks (more like Jammers, in other words). One of the goals of this edition was to remove "quantum rules" where retroactively something didn't happen to make the rules work.

    In the case of Sixth Sense, however, it's not quite as controversial as knowing whether you have an order or not. It's a really strong rule regardless.
    And yes, it's going to be complicated simply because rolls are opposed. It's the nature of opposed rolls.
     
  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Assuming game play is important, I recommend playing more games before buying more models. That will help you decide regarding further investment.
     
  8. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Say the sixth sense person is near an enemy mine.

    They declare delay and as it isn't an actual aro the mine doesn't go off. During resolution it is found to be turned to idle as delay wasn't legal.

    In this case, does the mine retro trigger as an aro now was declared during resolution?
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    You're missing out a step.

    Active trooper declares first Skill.
    Sixth Sense trooper says they're delaying their ARO. At this point, no ARO has been declared and the Mine therefore hasn't been triggered.
    Active trooper declares second Skill.
    Sixth Sense trooper declares their ARO, triggering the Mine.
    On checking ZoC, the ARO turns out to be illegal and becomes an Idle. This doesn't stop the Mine going off.
     
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  10. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough, you are correct. Sweet.
     
  11. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    This is all assuming the reactive trooper is squarely in the Mine trigger area, though, right? What is questionable is whether or not trooper was actually in the ZoC of the Active trooper.

    So if no ARO was ever generated, how was one declared to trigger the Mine? The example given isn't that they had an ARO but choose an illegitimate option, but that it goes to Idle because there never was an ARO at all...
     
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  12. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect
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    It's unfortunately kind of a messy situation. Even if there were no mine in play, you might also lose your camo status, even though you didn't execute any skills.

    Since there aren't actually any rules regarding when you can "guess" that you are within ZoC, I've seen people try to use this as a way to reveal hidden deployment models at the end of their opponent's first turn when going second. I really don't think it's a good mechanic, and feel like it would be much cleaner if measuring ZoC were allowed.
     
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  13. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Mines detonate when someone declares or executes a skill, so the declaration of an ARO should be enough to trigger it, even if it's later found that the trooper cannot execute the declared skill.
     
  14. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Legally you couldn't even declare the ARO though. You don't get to just fake declare AROs at a whim, like say you wanted to trigger a Mine with a high ARM/multi wound trooper because it would be more advantageous than the other trooper you need to get through that choke point.

    @toadchild i feel like having an exception for pre-measuring ZoC when you and your opponent agree it is relevant is much cleaner.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And we're back to the arguments that lead to CB having to make an FAQ on the topic in the first place. I don't mean that disparagingly, mind you, I'm just noting we're full circle.
     
  16. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Except apparently you can...
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    For the rules to function you need to be able to:

    Declare AROs on a whim.
    Execute and Resolve AROs that were actually generated.
    Resolve AROs that are generated but are invalid as an Idle.

    The ZOC check asks the question 'did this trooper actually generate an ARO at all'. AROs which aren't generated are not 'resolved' but rather are 'lost'. The FAQ makes this distinction clear.

    Treating an invalid declaration as an Idle is resolving it. An Idle is a positive outcome: something explicitly happens. A lost ARO does nothing.

    Otherwise you can legally place a model with HD onto the table in response to any of your opponent's orders (assuming no Stealth/Cautious Move) even if it's at 48" away and there is no-LOF. This is a bad thing. There's also weird interactions with Perimeter Weapons that basically makes forcing all Declared AROs be executed and resolved as Idle if not generated as a bad thing.

    Note that this isn't actually an issue for mines. Mines are triggered by the act of Declaring an order or ARO. It doesn't actually matter if that ARO was generated or not.

    "Once on the game table, Mines must trigger when an enemy figure or Marker declares or executes an Order or ARO inside their Trigger Area."

    Example:
    1. An Active Trooper without Stealth has moved (apparently) into ZOC (but outside LOF) of a Reactive Trooper.
    2. A Reactive Trooper who is within the Trigger area of a Mine delays their ARO
    3. The mine triggers.
    4. The Active Trooper declares their second Short Skill.
    5. The Reactive Trooper Declares Change Facing
    6. You measure ZOC and realise the Active Trooper is outside of ZOC. The Change Facing is not executed and is lost.
    7. Resolve the Mine against the Reactive Trooper. Do not resolve the Change Facing.

    Note that I specificly said there was no LOF. The OP does not make this distinction. If LOF exists in the OP's example then the delay and declaration would have occurred when there was an ARO and the subsequent declaration would need to be resolved (it would have occurred invalidly and would therefore become an Idle as @ijw says above).
     
    #17 inane.imp, Jun 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  18. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Just to be clear...
    So you agree with the interpretation that someone can declare an ARO they didn't actually have in order to purposefully trigger a mine now instead of later?
     
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It's the declaration that triggers the mine. You absolutely can declare an ARO with an active trooper actually outside of ZOC.

    Trying to define when it's reasonable to do so is madness.

    Ergo you can always declare AROs.

    My disagreement is to whether you're required to resolve these declarations or just 'lose' them.
     
  20. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    How is that different from @ijw 's explanation? You seem to be saying the same thing to me.

    And this interpretation definitely bothers me in allowing the declaration of any ARO any time because it does allow the Hidden Deployment shenanigans you point out. Just like a Mine trigger, HD is cancelled on ARO declaration, not resolution or execution.


    • The Hidden Deployment state is automatically canceled whenever the trooper declares any Short Skill, Entire Order or ARO.

    • A trooper that declares Idle performs no action.
    • The trooper is also considered to perform an Idle when he has declared a Skill not allowed by the rules.
     
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