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[SOLVED] Guts Rule Discrepancy Spanish v. English

Discussion in 'Dudas de reglas resueltas' started by Jhokalups, Dec 20, 2018.

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  1. Jhokalups

    Jhokalups New Member

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    While complaining to myself about the meaning of the word "or" I wanted to check the Spanish version.

    I found the following line:
    " Si se supera la Tirada de Agallas, la tropa no está obligada a hacer nada y puede permanecer donde está, o puede mantener dicha posición pero girando sobre sí misma para ponerse de cara a una tropa enemiga, de modo que ésta
    quede dentro de su LDT. "

    Which translates to:
    "
    If the Guts Roll is passed, the troop is not required to do nothing and you can stay where you are, or you can maintain that position but turning on itself toface an enemy troop, so that
    stay within your LDT. "

    The English rules and wiki say:
    • If the Guts Roll is successful, the troop can stand its ground and must do nothing else.

    Why is there such a big difference? It looks like in the Spanish version passing Guts allowed a model to turn to face. And when checking the Spanish FAQ I saw nothing to remove this extra line.

    @ijw can we get a ruling on this?

    Thank you.
     
    xammy likes this.
  2. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Interesting, I'm also aware of a slight discrepancy between language versions when it comes to immobilized troopers – allowing them to declare but not execute orders versus unable to declare orders at all.
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Given that this would make a big chunk of Warning!/¡Alarma! completely irrelevant, I suspect it's the Spanish version that's a mistake - but only CB are going to be able to answer for sure, and they're now on holiday until New Year.
     
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  4. Jhokalups

    Jhokalups New Member

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    Warning/Alarma require a trooper not to have used an ARO or Order, correct?

    It seems like the Spanish version allows a model that is doing something and then gets hit, to pass guts and then turn to face the trooper that shot them.
     
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  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So, according to the spanish wording...
    A model is shot from outside ZoC and LoF, passes ARM roll and passes Guts. He can turn to face the enemy anyway.
    A model is shot from inside ZoC but outside LoF, passes ARM roll and passes Guts. He can turn to face the enemy.

    According to english wording...
    A model is shot from outside ZoC and LoF, passes ARM roll and passes Guts. He can turn to face the enemy thanks to Warning.
    A model is shot from inside ZoC but outside LoF, passes ARM roll and passes Guts. He cannot turn to face the enemy.... You should voluntarily fail it and then you can turn if you are able to move, if you only go prone you should not even be able to turn...

    I suspect that the ES version is the right way...
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    More like this.

    Spanish:
    * If a model is shot outside of LOF and does not ARO, they can turn to face the enemy thanks to Warning rules regardless of Guts result.
    * If a model is shot outside of LOF and fails their ARO and passes Guts, they can turn to face the enemy thanks to Guts rules.
    * If a model is shot outside of LOF and fails their ARO and fails Guts, they can't turn to face the enemy unless the Guts movement allows them to.

    English:
    * If a model is shot outside of LOF and does not ARO, they can turn to face the enemy thanks to Warning rules regardless of Guts result.
    * If a model is shot outside of LOF and fails their ARO and passes Guts, they can't turn to face the enemy.
    * If a model is shot outside of LOF and fails their ARO and fails Guts, they can't turn to face the enemy unless the Guts movement allows them to.
     
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  7. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Relevant to Religious Troops who have to succeed at a dice roll in order to Fail a Guts check.
     
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  8. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    Hey, bumping because this is important to me. Now that CB people seem to be posting again.. can we get a ruling please?

    Thank you!

    @Koni @HellLois
     
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  9. HellLois

    HellLois What the Hell...Lois?
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    Hi!
    You are right, there is a discrepancy, but at the end the effect is the same.
    [​IMG]

    As you can see on the N3 Page 15 form N3 rulebook. The Armor and damage rule, If the trooper survives an Attack against him from outside of
    his 180º LOF, he can turn to face the attacker, at the end of the Order and without any Roll required.
    So if you get attacked, pass the Guts roll, and you survive you can turn to face the attacker,
     
  10. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    @HellLois always missed that part! However doesn't that contradict how "Warning" works? Page 45 of the rulebook, it says that to use warning and turn around after surviving an attack from out of LoF my trooper cannot have been activated in the same order.
    So let's say there's a guy withing my ZoC, shooting my unit in the back. I declare change facing, lose the face to face but survive anyway: Can i turn around to face my attacker as according to the page 15 of the rulebook, or do i refer to the warning rule and which i can't use to turn around since i declared an ARO?

    edit: About the part you quoted, aren't those the simplified rules for the introduction game? That would explain why i never noticed it :p
     
    #10 Sedral, Jan 7, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
    Gunmage, fenren, JacobJ and 1 other person like this.
  11. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    This is definitely from the stripped down "INTRODUCTORY GAME" rules. Was it intended to be used elsewhere?

    I was under the impression that this was used in the introductory game only to avoid the complexity of explaining the Warning rule, Change Facing AROs, and Guts movement options to a first time player.
     
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  12. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    @Koni @HellLois @ijw

    Can we please get a follow up on this question? There is still confusion as to whether or not the simplified "Introductory Game" Armor and Damage rules are meant to apply to normal game-play.

    The question relates to when a trooper drops prone because they can not improve their cover with a 2" Guts movement. Can they change facing for free? This question is in two active rules threads right now, and was asked on one of the YouTube Battle Reports Corvus Belli tweeted out.

    All previous answers I found on the old forum and the current forum have been "No" you can not change facing for free when you drop prone, because you did not move, you simply entered the prone state.

    Example: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/guts-roll-prone-and-change-facing.2021/page-2#post-194791

    This would be a fantastic thing to add to the next FAQ once resolved as it impacts game-play often.

    Thanks!
     
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  13. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Also in a situation where you fail your aro and aren't able to fail guts - ie, Religious Troops failing the Wip roll.
     
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  14. k104agi

    k104agi Member

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    Hello @HellLois

    As @fenren said above, there would be confusion among the gamers, because of the position of this rule.
    Should have it been stated in 'Introductory Game' part? Many people may understand this as 'simplified, summarized rule of warning!/etc'. Also, this part is not written in Infinity Wiki, too. May I hope this rule being also written in 'Basic Rules' section and Wiki?
     
  15. fenren

    fenren Active Member

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    Did we ever get any resolution on this?
     
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  16. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    Aye. Clarification would be good.
     
  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @HellLois could you please confirm that the 'Introductory Game' rules are correct for how to play this generally? If yes, could you please mark this thread solved?

    @Arkhos94 can you add this to the list until @HellLois solves it :)
     
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  18. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    @inane.imp : could you sum up the problem for me ? I'm a bit busy at work today and lack time to read all the post
     
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Alice activates within ZOC of Bob but outside of Bob's LOF. Bob elects to Change Facing. Alice BS Attacks Bob. Alice hits Bob but Bob survives the attack. Bob passes their Guts roll.

    Can Bob turn to face Alice?

    A. Yes. On Page 15 of the N3 rulebook 'The Armor and damage rule' states that "If the trooper survives an Attack against him from outside of
    his 180º LOF, he can turn to face the attacker, at the end of the Order and without any Roll required."
    B. No. The rule on Page 15 describes simplified rules for Introductorary Games. In the main rules this situation is covered by Warning and because Bob elected to ARO he cannot make use of Warning..
     
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  20. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Furthermore, the rules for Gut Roll seems to prevent you from turning both if passed (If the Guts Roll is successful, the troop can stand its ground and must do nothing else.) and if failed going prone (If the troop fails its Guts Roll, it must go Prone or move up to 2 inches in order to abandon the danger zone, gain Cover, or improve its Cover against the attack.)