1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

[SOLVED] Flash Pulse knock off Symbiomates?

Discussion in 'Solved Rule Questions' started by ObviousGray, Apr 22, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,816
    Likes Received:
    4,655
    More important to break logic than let Tohaa not be the most competitive faction, I guess.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    4,241
    So... that means that you don’t need to use Symbiomates against Flash Pulse.

    Which gets back to the used vs cancelled argument.

    I still argue that benefiting from TI is making use of Symbiomates.

    And because of recursive logic loop, if you don’t use Symbiomates vs Flash Pulse then you must use Symbiomates versus Flash Pulse. The only way to break that loop is to conclude that using Tai granted by a Mate isn’t actually using a Mate.

    Gods that's tortuous, please @HellLois errata this to add an example of a ‘Mated Trooper getting hit by a Flash Pulse.
     
    #22 inane.imp, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
    BLOODGOD and Hecaton like this.
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    4,888
    I can see both sides of the interpretation. I think they really needed an extra example in the book that showed just a non-lethal weapon being used.
     
    ChoTimberwolf and inane.imp like this.
  4. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    12
    Does switching the hyphens to a more usual comma help at all? I’m not sure it does at this point.

    “When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate suffers a successful Attack, or is affected by any weapon or rule, that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls”

    I believe the intention is not:

    “When a trooper in the Active Symbiont Armor state with a SymbioMate either:

    A) suffers a successful Attack
    or
    B) is affected by any weapon or rule that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls

    Then....”

    It’s certainly not the best piece of writing in the world but I’m not sure it’s quite at “this statement is false” levels of paradox. It feels like the grammatical equivalent of this:

    [​IMG]


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,437
    Likes Received:
    7,993
    EFFECTS
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,752
    Likes Received:
    4,241
    Your recommended wording?

    Because yeah, that's far clearer to work the way rule if it's the way that's intended.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,437
    Likes Received:
    7,993
    Recommended yes.

    I didn't actually change much. I just removed double information and moved the bullet point about hacking and comms up.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  8. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    And from multiple threads and posts discussing it already this is how it is intended to play.
     
    Robock likes this.
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,816
    Likes Received:
    4,655
    The fact that there *is* double information honestly suggests that this rule was changed somewhere through the design process and not playtested properly.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,437
    Likes Received:
    7,993
    I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion. I think it's more reasonable to conclude it wasn't allowed to be proofread properly.
     
    Xeurian, Omadon, DukeofEarl and 4 others like this.
  11. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2018
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    535
    I'm just happy that my interpretation in that previous thread isn't totally insane.
     
  12. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    You also need to look at the interaction with Crits and how that would be effected if you don't have constant TI while the Mate is active.

    Say I crit with EXP ammo against a unit with a mate. If you only get the TI when "use" the mate how would you handle it. The Crit means you take 1 wound and roll 2 ARM twice. Because you are rolling the Mate would activate (in the old sense). Now you would gain TI and not need to make the other two rolls meaning you didn't need to activate the Mate creating an oroboros-like situation. With TI constant you take the wound, but do not lose the mate due to making ARM/BTS rolls (though possibly due to losing Symbiont Armor). It is a much cleaner interaction and fits with the rulings that have been given.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,816
    Likes Received:
    4,655
    I think if it wasn't proofread the odds of it being playtested properly are low.
     
  14. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    I would look at it the other way. They wrote the rule down then played it and realized it needed to be changed. Added the changes to the rules without looking at the whole rule.
     
    Mahtamori and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,816
    Likes Received:
    4,655
    I guess I'm more cynical than you. Also, my first reaction to hearing about the SymbioMate changes was "Sweet, Flash pulses knock them off without the chance to pass a BTS roll!"

    Then seeing this leads me to believe they're still very much set on SymbioMates not having counterplay, which is... why people didn't like them in the first place.
     
  16. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    I think you mean no counterplay other than a dice roll. Which is still a step up from before.
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    4,816
    Likes Received:
    4,655
    Well before you could always crit.

    Now a ML crit doesn't toast the unit, so...
     
  18. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    1,271
    Likes Received:
    1,210
    Crits and the new Mates could use some looking at for sure. Hence the thread I started that was quickly hijacked to talk about this topic.
     
  19. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    2,557
    Likes Received:
    4,888
    I don't think that they just didn't playtest rules or that they made completely thoughtless edits. But playtesters and proofreaders aren't always the same thing, and playtest feedback is going to be based on how the playtester interpreted the rule. For some hypothetical badly written rule, for example, it could be possible to get feedback from two independent playtest groups, one which thought it was way too strong and another which thought it wasn't good enough, because they took opposite interpretations of the text.

    I'm not specifically defending CB's rule-writing process or playtesting process, as I don't know much about either of them. But I think that statements that things just weren't tested are probably inaccurate and seem kind of reductive.
     
    BLOODGOD and DukeofEarl like this.
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,437
    Likes Received:
    7,993
    SymbioMate and Total Immunity and a few others read to me like they wrote the rules continuously while playtesting.

    They're structured like they are written as a single paragraph that was then split up into bullet points instead of writing out the logic as bullet points first.

    I find this semi-return to N2 way of writing rules disheartening, as it gets messy and hard to read when pressed for time, and I hope CB will allow for a bit more work restructuring the rules before publication in the future.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.