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[SOLVED] Flash Pulse knock off Symbiomates?

Discussion in 'Solved Rule Questions' started by ObviousGray, Apr 22, 2019.

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  1. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Hot potato coming up again.

    AFAIK Symbios are;
    • Activates upon ARM/BTS roll provoking attacks.
    • Gives the user Total Immunity at that single order, ARM 9/BTS 9.
    Fine if you gets shot by a bullet. But if the attacker uses Flash special ammo, Flash Ammo is detailed as;
    • Roll
      After a successful Attack using Flash Special Ammunition, the target must make a BTS Roll.
    So flash triggers BTS roll.

    Symbios are off when the owner make a BTS roll.

    Flash is nominated as 'Attack'.

    Does this make Symbiomate active to Flash Pulses?
     
  2. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

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    It looks like symbiomates grant total immunity just by being assigned *without* needing to be activated. Therefore, due to the total immunity, flash pulse doesn’t trigger the ARM/BTS roll required to activate and thus expend the mate.

    If you actually read the three or four points carefully this is actually quite apparent but it does seem to be catching a lot of people out. Ideally I guess it might need a tweak of the text or an additional box out or something to clarify how it should work.

    That’s my understanding of it at least.


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    #2 Alf O'Mega, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2019
  3. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Only if the SymbioMate doesn't grant Total Immunity while equipped:
    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    SymbioMates effects, bullet for bullet:
    1. Place a marker next to the model who has it.
    2. Does X
    3. If attacked and forced to ARM/BTS, use it and it does X
    4. If used, remove it.
    5. Don't use it against Hacking or Comms attacks.
    So, it's not well structured at all and it reads very much like the classic bad bomb diffusing hand book "Cut the red wire, but first cut the blue wire". The 5th line should be the 3rd line and the actual 3rd line has too much information that causes confusion.
     
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  5. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

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    Yeah, reading it again that hyphenated part in the second effect is structured quite poorly.


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  6. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Having a pokemon grants the user Total Immunity til Pokemon faints? :joy:

    If it is stated on wiki, I'll finely accept it.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Other way around, user is hit and then Pokemon faints and grants Total Immunity.
     
  8. Alf O'Mega

    Alf O'Mega Member

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    I don’t think so - TI is granted with the assignment of the mate. This prevents the BTS roll that would cause a flash pulse to trigger the symbiomate to be expended.

    The more I read it the more I see how poorly it’s written to be honest! There’s about twice as much text as necessary!

    I think the intention is something like: “Only applies in active symbiont armour state. Grants ARM/BTS 9 and total immunity. Expended at the end of the order in which the first ARM/BTS roll is made, effects apply throughout the entirety of the order regardless of symbiont armour state”


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  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    TI is a property of the mate. If you're making use of TI you're using the mate.

    But yes, I agree that it's confusingly written.
     
  10. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    It feels like there’s one or two dozen page discussion threads that disagree here.

    Especially since if you apply Total Immunity there’s no BTS roll due to Flash Pulse being errata’d to Non-Lethal.
     
  11. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Mate provides TI as a blanket effect. Mate is Used (easier to understand if you read it as cancelled) on any order that causes you to make an ARM or BTS roll due to an attack, skill or rule. Flash Pulse is Non-Lethal so does not trigger an ARM/BTS roll against the TI. Mate stays in play unless another attack landed that order.
     
  12. ErrantVenture

    ErrantVenture Member

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  13. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    The mate grants TI, ARM9 and BTS9 until you make a roll, then it faints
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They really should change TI so it doesn't work vs. nonlethal ammo.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    If you read it as cancelled then you’d be correct. But the word is ‘used’, by making use of TI you are using a property of the Symbiomate. If you use the ‘mate you remove it.

    “This is a single-use piece of Equipment, the SymbioMate will be removed from the game table at the end of the Order in which it was used.”

    If you are benefitting from the effects of a skill or equipment you are using it. You can only ever use a ‘Mate once. You don’t get to benefit from TI multiple times over several orders and then take a Missile to the face and go “but I haven’t used the Mate yet”. You used the ‘Mate every time you cancelled a Falsh Pulse.

    I could well be wrong, but as written it’s confusing and we can’t really work it out: in another 100 posts I’ll still be certain that using TI is using the Mate and you’ll still be certain that benefitting from TI and cancelling the Mate are distinct. And it’s not going to be a situation where we can say which is obviously better from a gameplay POV either: CB appears to be nerfing Flash Pulse AROs, and it’s possible they intended to do that in this case.

    @Arkhos94, add it to the list please.
     
    #15 inane.imp, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.

    This is the other point: Flash Pulse is “an Attack that forces a BTS roll”, TI doesn’t stop that fact. Rather it means you won’t suffer the effects of a failed roll, so don’t bother making it.

    This means that Flash Pulse still triggers this clause of ‘Mates:
    “The SymbioMate must be used when suffering a successful Attack—or being affected by any weapon or rule—that forces ARM or BTS Roll.”

    The alternative is you get into a weird area where Flash Pulse is classed as “an attack that forces a BTS roll” for the purposes of TI but not for the purposes of ‘Mates.
     
  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @ijw seems to disagree.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Citation needed.

    But I honestly don’t know how you can apply the effects of a subsidiary skill prior to fulfilling the requirements of the parent skill. So if there is an order of operations going on then it should absolutely be:
    1. Remove Mate because you’ve been hit by an Attack that forces a BTS roll.
    2. Benefit from TI granted by the Mate, and don’t make the roll because you won’t suffer any effects.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's in this thread. IJW even edited the wiki to match the PDF that implies this. Basically, in this model, troopers with a Symbiomate passively have ARM 9 BTS 9 and Total Immunity; it's only expended when they're forced to make a roll.

    It's almost certainly a bad rules call, but then again Gutier has been making some questionable calls as of late so that's par for the course; Founder Syndrome hard at work.
     
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  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Ok then. So TI now has a recursive logic loop built-in, that's kinda amusing.
     
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