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So O12 Landed

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    How do you feel ?




    My feelings:

    O-12
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1
    LYNX Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle, Cybermine / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)

    0 SWC | 28 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    Neoterran Capitaline Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]1
    HEXA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 27)

    0 SWC | 27 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Though I'm surprised that Zeta seems to be +/- Tikbalangs (HRMC is nice but not exactly much better than +1 BS+Mimetism and possibly AP). Though Rriotstopper is interesting alternative to HFT.
     
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  2. Guardian

    Guardian Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I love how NeoPanO (O12) can have a cheap smoke warband! <3
     
  3. Bobblehead

    Bobblehead Well-Known Member

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    Zeta is more or less a copy of a Szalamandra with climbing plus.
     
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  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    And cheaper Nisse ?:P
     
  5. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    The "open in infinity army" links aren't working, and I'm having difficulty finding O-12 in the army builder.

    Does the Lynx have TO like the Hexa? If not, I'm not sure that this is a fair comparison. What special rules does the Lynx have?
     
  6. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    One more:

    OMEGA WIP 14, ODD, HMG / Pistol, Knife. 2 SWC | 48 Points

    VS


    ORC PH14, HMG / Pistol, Knife. 2 SWC | 44 Points
     
    #6 Dyne, Aug 1, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
  7. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Fun thing about O-12, that you can take a look at each of their unit, and find something in Pano, that's really similar, just worse/more expensive.

    I hope the ODD HI will get some core options.
     
  8. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, this just points out further that Orcs outside fireteams need some buffs. It's less that they are straight up bad, more that there is such a huge gulf between Orcs and the other HIs within the faction. I'm fine with them being pricey, they just need to make that price more worth it.

    With the current trend of these new factions having stronger-than-orc units as baseline HIs, it only makes it more obvious of an issue.

    Edit: Also where are people seeing these profiles? I can't find them.
     
  9. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

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    In the army: https://army.infinitythegame.com/
    Rembember: Ctrl+F5 to refresh the cache.
     
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  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Mind it is a remote presence TAG, which is much better than a manned TAG (can't be sepsitorized or expeled, can lose the Pilot without losing the TAG, the engineers can reroll while repairing, has 2 unconscious states...).
     
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    OMG, thank you. I had no idea I had to refresh the cache. hahahaha

    I've been viewing on my phone because I thought only the mobile version as updated. lol
     
  12. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    There we go, thanks! Alt-F4 also works, in case anyone needed an additional shortcut.

    So yeah, Lynx is a much better Hexa for only a couple extra points. TO is included. Great...

    I'm not one to complain about some things outclassing other options in other factions, but it's frustrating to see the Hexa KHD (and even the sniper profile) being outclassed for only a single point (with the Sniper one outclassed for 2 points). It even trades a point of phs to get +1 BS compared to the Hexa.

    At least the Hexa has the spitfire and regular hacking device options, but the sniper and KHD were the two most common profiles used. It's a touch frustrating to see this today.
     
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  13. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    It seems to be very focused on making limited insertion lists or lists that just breach it at 12 or 13 orders with the counter intel.

    That said, it has multiple bargain units running around. Everything seems aggressively priced. It's the faction where loses hurt, but they'll be hard to get. Acon with its mine games will be very strong against this faction as much of it relies on vis mods.

    They're strong. Very much annoyingly so when compared to factions that struggle with limitations such as morats and they flaunt certain precepts of game design that have been told to us by CB such as smoke and msv with nisse. Theres multiple profiles that are playing with the wonky pricing CB has for several skills and equipment such as smgs on chain rifle warbands with berzerk and smoke grenades making them versatile but cheap and effective trading pieces. Further the faction has an overall appearance of PanO+. Very tech focused. Very good BS all around.

    Its hacking game is solid for stats but like PanO lacks those juicy upgrades. Their "interventor" is a direct downgrade from Nomads (funny that). They have plenty of options for hacking and dont lack for devices.

    They're missing fire weapons in general. No rockets. No flamethrowers. They instead have to rely on adhesive to immobilize but that doesnt remove a piece or an order or nanopulsers which can become ineffective quickly against reasonable bts values.

    I'm cautiously skeptic of it at the moment. There's very few things missing right now and a lot of compact power but we'll have to see how it pans out.
     
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  14. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the faction as a whole is definitely missing some tools. I'm hopeful that they end up balanced, with the "x faction unit but better" aspects being downplayed by their lack of other options.

    It does feel like they are PanO+, which is frustrating. But hopefully actual games end up with them proving that they aren't that.
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Well... O-12 may spam regular orders very easily if they want:

    -.-
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    ALPHA Lieutenant (Strategos L2) 2 Light Shotguns, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    KAPPA Hacker (Hacking Device) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 15)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)

    0.5 SWC | 121 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    In that list for 121 points you have 11 regular orders (strategos) plus counterinteligence.

    Check this other one:
    PewPewPew
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    EPSILON HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    GANGBUSTER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Submachine Gun, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
    SIRIUS (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges + 1 SiriusBot / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] SIRIUSBOT Heavy Riotstopper / Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KYTTÄ Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FUZZBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    ALPHA Lieutenant (Strategos L2) 2 Light Shotguns, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 26)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    EPSILON HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)
    SIRIUS Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Submachine Gun + 1 SiriusBot / Pistol, Knife. (0,5 | 25)
    [​IMG] SIRIUSBOT Heavy Riotstopper / Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    GANGBUSTER Combi Rifle + Light Riotstopper, MadTrap / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    VARANGIAN Submachine Gun, Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
    LAMBDA Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    KAPPA Hacker (Hacking Device) Submachine Gun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 15)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    3.5 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
    Not bad at all for an order starved "elite" faction.
     
  16. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I'd honestly take the light shotgun over the submachine gun for 12 points.
     
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  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    The presence of a smoke-tossing chain rifle-wielding warband's pretty great, but I'd put that as roughly on par with some of Vanilla PanO's utility tools, like Regular Minelayers and Auxilia.

    A lot of these elite forces are really vulnerable to backline hunting, and while O-12 has some pretty good tools for holding their backline together, it's nowhere near the defensive strength of something like TAK or VIRD. So I can see O-12 being vulnerable to having their backline gutted, or to losing a couple primary heavy hitters and not having many options to fall back on.

    Comparing them to Vanilla PanO, the difference of a few points here or there doesn't really bother me. Comparisons to Hexa, Nisse, etc. just don't worry me that much, because I don't think the game hinges on 2-3 points differences between a handful of units. Vanilla PanO feels encroached upon a bit, and I think it further reinforces the notion that Joan is the way that Vanilla is supposed to be played, but I'm sure there are clever Vanilla players who can speak to this better than I can.

    The ODD HI is certainly very good, but so what? Plenty of things are good compared to other things.

    For Order pools, I think they can hit 15 Orders easily. Max AVA on guard, max REMs, easily allows 6-9 cheap-ish Orders that allow for investment in pricier troops.
     
    #17 barakiel, Aug 1, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2019
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  18. Nomadimp

    Nomadimp Well-Known Member

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    My knee-jerk initial reaction was basically 'meh, it's more of less PanO with some bells and whistles' until I got to the end and saw the Varangians at which point I was like 'um... what?'

    My main concern with O-12 was that I didn't really see how they were bringing a new enough style of play to the game without stepping on other faction's toes but was optimistic that they'd pull it off somehow. On paper they seem to play a little different from just being PanO+ but not as much as I was hoping to be honest. It's basically PanO that borrows enough concepts from Nomads to cover some of the traditional PanO weaknesses (smoke, white noise, etc) while seemingly retaining the basic playstyle of 'I mostly start in my DZ, then use big guns to shoot my way out, then I use a few specialists to push the buttons'.

    Obviously, I haven't played any of this yet or even tried to build a real list so who knows. But my initial reaction is to be a little disappointed to be honest even though I'm totally sympathetic to their plight. They get criticized for rules bloat, but I do feel like they've pretty fully explored the possible design space of the game at this point, so it's hard to differentiate without new rules. Also, just not making new stuff isn't really a tenable business model, so this kind of outcome seems pretty inevitable.
     
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  19. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    They're not really Pan-O in that respect. They have a comparative lack of MSV2, TO, and no BS15 when compared to Pan-O. They're closer to YJ mechanically minus the CC bloat. Thematically they're somewhat comparable to Imperial Service except more Bad Boys and less Gestapo/War crimes.
     
  20. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    I would not. VG are an entirely different unit. Hold them as order generators and DZ guards with both direct and indirect templates or release them as standard Warbands. There's no SWC cost like the Regular and they have way better defensive options than Auxilia. And before someone says "well the vg are bad shooters" I have news for you, so are the Auxilia.

    PanO rant time: it's irritating to see this since apparently the way to get warbands and smoke in PanO or to get camo and ODD in Morats is to simply be called O-12. (side complaint: take a look at O-12's HI, not a combi in sight)

    Regarding comparisons to existing units, the Hexa/Lynx for example, is that the Hexa's close range not-combi option is the Spitfire costing 1.5 SWC while the Lynx won't even have to sully his hands with such tools. Like a Hexa with a shock marksman would open up a lot (maybe too much) in NCA but looking at O-12 they don't seem to have the same concerns.

    Regarding generic PanO, it always seems like a balancing act between SWC and orders. Like the aforementioned Regular minelayer is great but what else could the SWC be used on. O-12 doesn't have that problem. You can have a mountain of regular orders to power your heavy hitters and your support shooters.
     
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