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So how's everyone feeling?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    Bearing in mind that we haven't seen the full N4 picture yet, I'm curious how the PanO community is feeling about what we've seen so far. Some reactions of my own, in no particular order:

    • Tac Window: I don't think anyone realizes what a double-edged sword this is. Yes, we'll be seeing fewer warbands, but if you were taking heavy casualties on Turn 1 from warbands, that's not really a factor of the rules or list composition. With fewer Irregular/ablative pieces to use for Defense on Turn 1, a successful Alpha hurts us more, not less, since we'll be losing highly important Regular Orders starting with the very first casualty. I expect many more swingy games, decided on Turn 1. Regardless of what you think about this rule, in terms of how healthy it is for the game, there's one clear factor: Units not only have to justify their point and SWC cost, but they have to justify the slot they take up in a Tac Window list. Fugazi, Warcor, Helot, etc. are all cheap, strong staples of PanO lists. They were formerly easy to justify, due to their low point cost. However, I doubt they will continue to be worth their Tac Window slot.
    • The HI and TAG focus: this obviously plays well to many of PanO's strengths. Virtually every form of playing PanO can benefit from positive changes to these unit types. Changes to cost, to MOV values, boosted survivability from Crit changes, etc. should help all flavors of PanO.
    • Hacking changes. This is an interesting one. Still lots of questions to be asked. I think that the cap on Orders will limit our ability to get cheap Repeaters up the field. It will be more difficult for Sectorials with AVA2 or AVA3 Fugazi to fit those into a list.
    • Auxilia. This unit is getting a specific mention, because I think they're now the foremost disposable unit in Infinity. Their slightly high point cost is no longer an issue, since we'll naturally be selecting slightly more expensive units for our lists. They can be a Specialist, they generate a Regular Order, and (most importantly) they can attack/defend/deny area without directly risking themselves or their Order. This was already a good unit, and its stock just went way up.
    • Smoke changes, MSV1. Smoke is going to be harder to get on the table now, and many players will choose to lob smoke from a Regular unit with a launcher, rather than allocating multiple list slots to Irregular units. This is a huge advantage for us, since we'll be seeing a lot less "free" smoke deployed during the Impetuous phase. I'm really excited for this, because the former days of watching an opponent deploy 30-40 smoke templates in the course of a 3-turn game are gone. Additionally, our smattering of MSV1 units gain a very healthy advantage. This is most notable with our Dire Foe, who is really well situated (thanks to link bonuses) to actually challenge and scare incoming smoke units. This is also a boost for Bagh Mari, if/when we get to use them again.
    • I'm going to miss having Shock Army at launch. That was already PanO's best-kept competitive ITS secret. They're so well-rounded, and they're benefiting tremendously from N4 changes, without being hurt too heavily. They're flexible and adaptable, and they're the perfect Sectorial for understanding a new edition. I really with they were around.
    • VIRD: I'm not sure they're going to be competitively viable. Yes, maybe some TAG shenanigans. But the biggest problem is that they've their interwoven mechanics are now thoroughly broken (and not in the good way, either.) Jammer + MSV2 + Helots formed a layered network of defensive mechanics that helped this Sectorial function. When it functioned well, it made opposing players cry. Their crying was so loud, so frequent, so often, that we've seen the current nerfs come into play. Now, with those overlapping mechanics badly damaged by nerfs to Jammer, the non-viability of multiple Helots, etc., I'm not really sure what VIRD can offer to offset their disadvantages. If I play with VIRD, I may entirely ditch Zulu Cobra Jammers and Helots, replace them with Croc FOs, and try to focus on an AP mine-based defense.
    • NCA: Seriously back on the menu now. I mentioned Auxbots, but the other big N4 mechanic they can leverage is Hidden Deployment. With the limit to Order pools, the limits on smoke, and the fewer number of warbands we'll see, I think Hidden Deployment is going to rise to the top as a superior defense option. Letting an opponent burn 4-5 Orders maneuvering a unit, only to smoke it with a Hexa MSR reveal, is much more likely and powerful than it was in N3. NCA's trademark Heavy Infantry are only going to get better, it's Medium Infantry are likely to see improvement, it has a modest TAG game, and hasn't been directly targeted with any nerfs.
    • MO: Maybe...? Certainly, we're all hearing about HI and TAG buffs, and MO is well poised to benefit. I actually find myself thinking about their Tikbalang, and the extra anti-Armor capability on that version is pretty sweet for this new edition. They benefit from aforementioned Auxbot advantages, aforementioned Hidden Deployment advantages, and solid staples like Magisters are only likely to get better now.
    • Svalarheima: Well, a lot of Sval makes sense now. My attitude towards them hasn't changed tremendously... You're still playing with a disadvantage if there's absolutely zero surprise factor in your army, and I still think that's an issue If your opponent isn't worried about even the remote possibility of an AD unit walking on, or what could be under a Camo token, they're able to fight you with a degree of control and confidence which is very, very high. There might be some changes coming for Sval though, so I'll reserve judgement there.
    On the whole, PanO's in pretty decent shape here. The clear target for nerfs (VIRD) is sad to see, since that's the Sectorial that not only offered a brand new playstyle to the game (defensive dominance) but also made players excited for PanO again. I don't think they deserve what's happening to them. But N4 should bring viability back to some old beloved armies, and that will be fun to try.
     
    #1 barakiel, Aug 31, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
  2. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    For Pano, the changes of the Aquila Guard seem huge. Using Code one as a guide, it has dropped nearly 10 points. ORCs now have a role as a cheap and fast unit. In addition, HI SWC seems to have gone down (2 SWC to 1.5 SWC). This should let us use some more heavy guns on stable platforms.
     
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  3. Swiftage

    Swiftage Well-Known Member

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    Forgive my question. Hacking changes? Line trooper hackers no longer buffing REMs?Did I miss something?
     
  4. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    We don't have a picture yet on how supportware, hacking, which-devices-belong-to-which-programs, etc. are laid out.
     
    #4 barakiel, Aug 31, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
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  5. Swiftage

    Swiftage Well-Known Member

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    Ah, interesting. Many thanks @barakiel .
     
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  6. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Well, first of all I'm waiting to see rule and army changes to decide if I'm keeping PanO at all in N4. Over the last years I got seriously disheartened by the lack of clear direction for the faction, unit bloat making multiple units compete for the same role, lack of designers imagination resulting in multiple "just throw MSV and/or visual mods on it" units, and characters that are extremely bland and contribute very little to the faction. I'd be reluctant to abandon PanO - Acon was my first army and is still one of ma favourites - but I need to see if I'm going to have fun playing it in new edition.

    That aside:
    • Tactical Window will have little impact on how I play; my lists were usually in the 14-16 order range, and I intend to play without this restriction, anyway. I like greater creative freedom for people to build their lists, both for me and my opponent. But in metas that will use Tac Window PanO will probably flourish. We don't need to rely on disposable defence as much as other factions. Fugazi and Helots are the main example of such units, and they will still have their place - especially since we're more likely to field TAGs now. Both TAGs and elite HI will benefit from the ability to start with one unit already in Suppressive Fire. Defensive setups like ORC Feuerbach or KoJ ML in a link will be harder to dislodge now. This should shift general approach from light, disposable defence, to more resilient pieces.
    • Another units that will gain importance will be infiltrators and AD troops - units that will be able to perform quick surgical strike, eliminating enemy AP weaponry, especially the long ranged ones. Speaking of AD troops, I really hope to see Akalis and Crusaders getting redesigned, so that they won't be almost exact copies of each other.
    • Our MI are also likely to gain importance now, and we have some very good ones (though I still fail to see the point of Infirmarers).
    • Hacking - I'm waiting to see the exact rules, but I doubt it'll change my approach. Especially regarding EVO, since I've already used it in almost all of my lists, preferring it over cheaper line hackers.
     
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  7. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    re: TacWindow
    I look forward to Van Zanting PanO in the rear ;)

    re: Smoke
    Ariadna seems to have nice smoke launcher units (bikers, antipode pack controller), while at the same time having MSV1 AP snipers and MSV1 infiltrators with template shotguns (Uxia!), so THAT is rather double edged IMO?
     
  8. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    True, but PanO tends to have higher BS. Shooting through smoke on 6's is ok when you're hunting some warbands at long range, but not so good when facing more elite units.
     
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  9. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    If Tac Window starts seeing universal popularity too, having a unit spend a couple of Reg orders dispensing smoke, an MSV1 unit spending a couple more orders maneuvering, and then firing at a PanO target on 5s or 6s (or worse, considering how easy it is to get Cover in N4) is probably a better deal for the PanO player than it is for the attacker. In practical terms, I have a hard time justifying the order expense of Patsy + Zulu Cobra Triangulated Fire right now, let alone worse odds that require more Orders to set up.

    I think the MSV1 deal is at its best when you can put good rangebands, high Burst, and linked Ballistic Skill in the mix. A Bagh Mari Sniper keeping enemies honest on 12s is just good enough to serve as a really nice defensive tool.
     
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  10. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    I didn't mean the AP B2 +6 range shots, I meant the B2 direct templates, small "flamer" shotguns as they are now in N4, since Impact is gone.

    If that's Uxia, it will be whatever the Surprise Shot (Camo, Stealth?) does in N4 now probably affecting your Dodge, not an F2F shootout, I think?

    I'm unsure how C1 / predictions affected this stuff now.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

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    Surprise Attack/Shot is now a universal -3, rather than -3 only to F2F rolls, so Uxia will benefit from it when she uses Ramona in DTW mode.
     
  12. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Is... is Uxia's shotgun named... Ramona? :speak_no_evil:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Panzerschwein

    Panzerschwein Well-Known Member

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    Kosmoflot
    ─────────────────────────────
    [​IMG]5

    Corelink
    WALLACE Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    FRONTOVIK (Multiespectral Visor L1) AP Sniper / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31)
    FRONTOVIK (Multiespectral Visor L1) AP Sniper / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31)
    FRONTOVIK (Multiespectral Visor L1) AP Sniper / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31)
    FRONTOVIK (Multiespectral Visor L1) AP Sniper / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1 | 31)
    4 SWC | 159 Points

    How I feel about that?
    [​IMG]
    ;)
     
    #13 Panzerschwein, Aug 31, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  14. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    I'm primarily a Haqq player, but during covid I've switched to SAA on Tabletop Simulator, running exclusively Tikbalang lists. Because the Tik is so much fun, and also in preparation for N4 where TAGs will be even better.

    So obviously I'd also have liked to see SAA in N4 at launch. When it does come back, if unchanged it will be a powerhouse, with the Tik and Bagh-Mari sniper both getting better while the Tik also gets cheaper. Although it's not all roses - the crit change will be a fairly big nerf to Dart and the Nagas. In the meantime, I'm irrationally hoping that MO gets another rework and becomes playable.

    Otherwise, I'm mostly curious to see how viable a Vanilla Tikbalang list will be in N4. What I'd really like is for armour to get cheap enough that I can include enough ARO presence in a Vanilla list to make up for the loss of the linked Bagh-Mari. If the Tik and the Swiss Miss both get cheaper, it might be possible! First-turn suppression may also help a lot. In any case, all I can say for certain so far is that every Vanilla list will include max AVA Auxilia FOs :-)
     
  15. Nomadimp

    Nomadimp Well-Known Member

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    Is NCA confirmed to be in N4 at launch? I thought they got Acontecimento'd to make room for Svalarheima?

    In general I agree, tactical window won't effect me much personally and I skipped VIRD entirely. I picked up Winter Force but haven't gotten a game in yet, attempts at list building with them in N3 left me puzzled though, I never really felt like I could come up with anything I liked. Hopefully N4 will make it click into place a bit more.

    As for how I'm feeling? This isn't entirely their fault but honestly I've been pretty checked out since N4 was announced and it became clear that Code One wasn't really for me. I'm definitely looking forward to Army getting updated so I can at least theorycraft even if I can't play still.

    In the absence of any other changes I think Vanilla might actually be the best way to go with Pan-O for the first time in my infinity experience so that'll be interesting.
     
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  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Without the full menu of changes, hard to be certain, but they seem promising to me. Yes, some fun tools got nerfed, but I'd imagine there are some swings in there to go with the roundabouts. And I'm not concerned about having to wait until the end of the year for SAA, should be fun once it hits.
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    Oh yeah, I forgot to answer the actual question from the OP, i.e. "how are you feeling" :-) Answer: stoked. I'm really looking forward to N4, I think a lot of the changes will make for a better gameplay experience. I don't think my Haqq will improve, but I do think my Pano will improve. And the Tikbalang price reduction will mean I'll get to play more other interesting units without compromising my "at least one Tik in every list" policy.
     
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  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Interesting thoughts, @barakiel. Some of it resonates, some I think I disagree lightly with but that's more down to personal approach (and to an extent the way my experience with things VIRD does being really more experience with things Spiral does, and although the profiles are identical, spiral helots exist in a different context to VIRD ones).

    Would you mind expanding a little on your thoughts around the value of hidden deployment in N4? I'd initially been thinking that the the limited troop numbers in tactical window has an adverse impact on hidden deployment's ability to surprise (i.e. the presence or absence of a hidden deployment model is more obvious in a tactical window list) but I hadn't considered that the existing strength of a hidden model to allow reactive player agency in determining when a gunfight takes place might be more valuable than before. It's an interesting line of thought.

    As an aside, a PanO model that I think deserves a shoutout for special consideration heading into N4 is the Peacemaker. With the ability to go prone (based on Code One, at least) plus the way an Auxbot cheats the unit cap, plus the relative increased value of a midfield repeater with the change to spotlight as an ARO, plus plus it being a near perfect model to launch offensive action out of a smaller 5-model combat group, triple plus the shotgun changes on a DAM15 heavy shotgun, N4 feels like everything is coming up peacemaker.
     
  19. SpectralOwl

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    "Cautiously optimistic" is my feeling here. I love the price cuts on big guys, I'm generally positive about Tactical Window, rather down about no NCA for months. I think the boost to the power of standard Hacking Devices helps PanO a lot with its REM dependency, now it gets a bit cheaper to raise a credible defense against "fancy" Hackers. I'm dreading any changes though; between O12 barging into the top end of PanO's design space, Varuna and SWF being packed with average-grade skills and equipment and a comment by Bostria that the Hexa might be a good candidate to lose Mimetism while keeping the rest of the Camo package, I'm concerned that PanO might be losing access to its high technology in favour of cost efficiency.

    On the other hand, no more Tohaa for a good 3 months, that's pretty great. N4 is fine by me.
     
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  20. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    I'm feeling very optimistic about the changes for PanO. I started playing SAA properly, and later PanO vanilla when it was announced that the Nordic Masters were going to be using Tactical Window. Initially, I wasn't a fan of the variant, but playing that type of list in PanO now for almost a year has made me appreciate the format more and more. I also think PanO works very well in the format, and I regularly include helots, warcors and auxilia in my defence, even with the cap. What they accomplish for me is to add a small smattering of speedbumps to an otherwise hard hitting elite force of croc men, zulu cobras and a TAG or two...
     
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