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Snipers and The Correct Application

Discussion in 'Haqqislam' started by sololobo, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys,

    I like snipers and wanted to field a few profiles with the standard haqq sniper rifle; however, when it comes to its application I am having difficulty determining the preferred target i.e. TAG, HI, MED, LI.

    Obviously, TAGs are rightfully out of reach unless we are utilizing the AP variant or maybe the Viral variant.

    LI? Typically the basic rifle is good enough to put them down, so I feel it’s the wrong target.

    This leaves me HI and MED, so are these two types of infantry the preferred target for the standard haqq sniper rifle?
     
  2. Catspaw

    Catspaw Well-Known Member

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    Because of their low burst and extreme range bands, I think sniper rifles of any flavor are better served as overwatch ARO pieces than they are active turn strikers. You generally want to place them in a position that gives very long sight lines and abuse the MOD bonus you would have over the opponent's shorter range armament (since many of the snipers in Haqq have some level of mimetism, you can reliably get to -9 or -12). If your opponent is leaving pieces out in the open for you to snipe then in the active turn you could probably target anything except extremely heavily armored enemies, but 2 active dice v 1 ARO is always... er... dicey.
     
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  3. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    I assume you mean during the active turn?
     
  4. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Infinity isn't hugely about damage, except against TAGs - thats their thing. Worrying about if your DAM 13 rifle or your DAM 15 sniper is suppost to counter Heavy Infantry or something is thinking too much about it - most guns will take down most targets. Hell, a pistol can put holes in heavy infantry!

    Sometimes its about getting the right tool for the job, but when the job is "shoot something in the face" most guns can do it, so the game is not really about lining up the right weapon for a specific target (ie, gun with "bonus vs heavy infantry" vs heavy infantry or something) as much as it is about the positioning of the units in question and the rangebands on the weapons.

    The basic Sniper Rifle is mainly good as a cheap ARO piece. You can get it on a Ghulam for like 17 points. That Ghulam watches an area and says "for 17 points, I'm denying this area to your specialists until you spend multiple orders bringing a good sweeper here to get rid of me".

    Offensively, Snipers are sub-par. If you can get extreme range they are good, but on a 48x48 table there is some but not a ton of fighting at 33+ inch distance. Mainly corner to corner stuff.
     
  5. BrianJ

    BrianJ Member

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    I'm curious to try the hortlak as a lone sniper. With the ability of MSV1 to now see through smoke that AP sniper at DMG16 seems like it could really force an opponent to spend some serious orders to fight through him. Not sure if that is worth 35 pts currently, but I'd like to hear if anyone else has given him a try yet. If nothing else it could really be a surprise who aren't expecting a hard ARO game from Haqq.
     
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  6. Agorapocalypse

    Agorapocalypse Namurr and Nahab are girlfriends

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    Idk if hes that good alone, but i have heard good things about having them in links in rama. I cant wait to try it myself once i can start playing again.
     
  7. Paegis

    Paegis Vincible Officer

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    I've played a linked Hortlak sniper in RTF in N3 and he was really dominant. Against anything other than an ODD model, you're basically getting a tougher Kamau sniper (though he lacks DA). His only real weakness was not being able to see through smoke, which is gone (though the Janissary link - even with wildcards - is really expensive).

    In vanilla if you're looking for an ARO sniper, Le Muet is probably the best option - he's only 4 points more than a Hortlak and gets ODD as well as a MULTI Sniper (though he's also 1.5 SWC instead of 0.5).
     
    #7 Paegis, Oct 12, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
  8. Mannebein

    Mannebein Well-Known Member

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    While I haven't used a sniper in n4 yet, I want to try the zhayedan sniper as an ARO. The marksmanship is useful, and I really like the regeneration changes. In a dream game he does his job as an ARO, gets put in unconscious state and gets back up in states phase to do it all again.

    And even if he doesn't get up, your opponent will have to play assuming that he will be active again in your turn, and not leave models in the open in his firelane.
     
  9. KwarkyMats

    KwarkyMats Well-Known Member

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    Snipers are good at dealing with total reaction remotes if you're outside 32. Just make sure you have some form of mimetism. A linked Hortlak should be good at removing TR remotes because of this, since it'll only be able to shoot back on 2's or dodge on a 10.
    Most of the time I just have snipers around for ARO duty. Shock ammo makes them good against dogged warbands and Aleph's NWI models.
     
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  10. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    He did well, providing one avoid all the usual issues with snipers.

    I haven't used it since N4 but from what I can tell it's only edged towards the better. How that compares too how much the targets have improved, that I don't know.

    This was in vanilla play.
     
  11. sololobo

    sololobo Well-Known Member

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    Well, I’m absorbing what has been talked about and from the responses here is what I have picked up. Snipers are strictly an ARO piece. Best in a link, but what isn’t. Long range blocking lanes of fire are ideal. And, the weapon power or target doesn’t matter.

    I get all that; however I disagree the power matters. I’m reading over reports and the basic rifle including red furry are not cutting it against ARM 3. POW 13 is no longer king. Basically, the meta is changing to more armor centric lists.

    Dice are being talked about as less important as opposed to ammo type now, at least what I’ve read here and there.

    This one of the reasons I am interested to see if our haqq snipers are a answer to this new emerging metta of armor and quality slots. And thankfully, we are the second best hacking faction in the game. B]

    I’m going to say Snipers are a leg up and their targets are ARM 3 like. At half SWC we can field six snipers and six hackers if we wanted too. I just wish as AP rich as Haqq is that we would fed full metal jackets in the chamber over shock rounds. Supply NCO - Fix This!
     
    #11 sololobo, Oct 13, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  12. Sojourne

    Sojourne Irregular

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    The puzzle I think, shouldn’t be what type of units a sniper should be shooting at, but instead more of a positional nature. Where should a sniper be placed such that it complements the rest of my army’s positioning well?

    If active, you usually have better things to spend orders on rather than trying to snipe something in a “both-in-cover-both-in-good-range fair fight” if you’re playing Haqq. By all means take the shot if you’re confident you can outrange an opposing TR bot or even something like a TAG out of cover, but such juicy targets don’t come often. That’s because most competent players won’t leave out anything easy for your sniper to gun down that easily for your active turn.

    Thankfully Haqq has lots of other tools that can deal with an entrenched opposing force, Fidays, Nahabs, infiltrating camo tokens, super jumping stuff which can outflank the opponent, etc. Haqq being Haqq, no single option will probably work by itself due to the fragile and versatile nature of our pieces, but throw enough things and eventually something will stick.

    If reactive, there are a couple ways you can approach snipers.

    The first is the roadblock throwaway mentality. The main thing here is efficiency in the sense of how many orders your sniper will be able to waste from the enemy before dying since most opponents will just bring their best gun to bear on your poor sniper. You won’t expect your sniper to actually do damage in the material sense, but you are expecting them to waste more than a couple orders from the opponent. Haqq has some pretty good pieces for this. Ghulam sniper for 16 pts and 0.5 SWC? It’s merely 11BS, and only shock ammo, but still a threat that can’t be simply ignored. A Lasiq sniper with mimetism and ARM 2 for 25pts? Gold. The key considerations here are

    a) use the rest of your army to complicate removal of these snipers for the enemy. Going back to the Haqq theme of the sum of our units being greater than their individual selves, just having 1 more camoed Daylami hanging near your sniper can be a headache if there’s no good angle for your opponent to slice the pie. Or that an opponent’s best position to take down your sniper with their best gunfighter is also covered with an impersonation token. Hell, the opponent now has to consider the possibility of a mini noctifer with the Nadhir really complicating things now too! Things like that.

    b) the best spot for your throwaway sniper isn’t somewhere the opponent can deal with immediately in 1 turn. Try to find a lane that is away from the opposing linked HMG. Don’t be greedy. Covering a single objective or zone is good enough. Force your opponent to spend orders to get their stuff in position to deal with your sniper effectively.

    The second way you can approach your sniper is to kind of use them as reserve. Deploy them prone and hiding. Midway or late in the the game, hopefully when you have whittled down the opponent’s “problem solving” units as much you can with your other stuff, your sniper pops up and starts to *really* be a threat since the opponent simply don’t have enough tools left at that point in time. Here again, Haqq is good for this since well, we have lots of other really potent offensive pieces that can efficiently take out targets, and we have a good range of snipers that can do this job. The Hortlak sniper with ARM 3, smoke seeing MSV1, BS13 and effective 2Ws can be a tough nut to crack without the proper tools. You can even consider super climbing a Lasiq sniper for a better position at the expense of cover at this point if the opponent doesn’t have MSV units left.

    Haqq is difficult. The puzzle for us isn’t so simple as just shooting our way out of things with the biggest gun (cries in FAT2 removal). Our considerations are more of a positional and layered approach for us.
     
    #12 Sojourne, Oct 13, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
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  13. zurelol

    zurelol New Member

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    What about knauf in vanilla? I think he's improved: He's got good BS (13), msv1, mimetism and +1 burst on all weapons
     
  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Yup, they gave me a nice boost with that +1B, basically making me a one-man haris in active turn with Shock + AP on both weapons. With stealth + B3 Heavy Pistol, I can also transition fairly well into a midfield role in later turns.
     
    #14 Knauf, Oct 13, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2020
  15. ik3rian

    ik3rian Anti-Ariadnian Specialist

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    I think that after first few games i was dissapointed with normal sniper rifles as aro weaponry. Ive learned to value missle launchers, TR bots and VSRs/MSRs more. I try to stick yo Lasiq in HB and Jannisary ML in RTF, Kaplan MSR or Feuerback Azrail in QK were my usual choices.
    They were usually a passive model, if i opted for playing a game with two combat groups, they would usually be the only regular in second combat group with Mutts, Daylamis and Kums.
     
  16. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    For me, a sniper is primarily a form of area denial. Long-ranged, hard-hitting ARO that discourages the opponent to take a particular avenue of approach.

    Sure, it isn't that difficult to neutralise with a linked HMG / Spitfire in good range. Still, DAM 15 Shock hit is something no-one is happy to take.

    Offensively, I do use linked snipers (Burst 3 is rather important there) to outrange targets (well, and as a Team-supported, long-ranged ARO, if an opportunity presents itself).
     
  17. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    My go-to sniper in Vanilla is Lasiq VSR. IMHO great cost efficiency for such dangerous unit, good for ARO, but also capable of catching enemies of guard thanks to (sometimes) surprising mobility. Important is also the fact that I really really like my Lasqa ((in Polish "laska" is a cute girl) ;)
    In the last N3 tournament she made a symbolic goodbye with N3 viral ammo, killing from distance a linked Vet Kazak. Firstly Djabel took out one of the team members, then she killed Vet in two orders. Hitting him on 9 wasn't easy, yet he was hitting on 4s... And when Viral hits, it's usually the end for 1-wound models. Or was in N3 ;) Now in N4 it will be a bit tougher with Shock Immune models, yet forcing BTS saves on 0 BTS models is still good.

    About the rest of snipers - I also used Djan sniper (but usually I preferred him with HMG).
    I also played with Zhayedan and liked him. Few times used Ghulam sniper.
    All of them have the nice advantage of costing only 0,5SWC which gives option to field more support weapons.
    I used Le Muet few times for fun (and he did gave me some joy and some irritation for enemies), but that's an option for bigger points.

    But since we got the option to field Knauf I preferred him over the rest, usually choosing between him or Lasqa, depending on the rest of the army. He did mostly well, taking advantage of his MSV1 plus Mimetism. And I really like that he has very dangerous armament (DA + Shock) and now he even has burst 3 in active turn, great stuff. I think I'll try him next Sunday in our first N4 200pts tournament.
    But, since Haqq have friends between Druze society, I use the great Jethro mini and tell everyone that it's him - as a proxy (goes rather good with the history in Outrage comic ;) ).

    I also thought of using Hortlak in Vanilla, yet with his cost I think I'd rather prefer Jethro's harder punch. Or few points more for Le Muet.
    Different in Ramah - I used Hortlak few times there and when in full link he is really tough ARO and also dangerous in active.


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
  18. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I'am with @KedzioR_vo Lasiq is a really good piece, not only as "ARO" too as "hunter". With climbing plus could catch some places the enemy could not have expetected.

    Still, snippers have the same problems as allways in the active turn, low burst, but not all is bad. With more IPs in game players will need more "heavy weapons" so probably the amount of ML it will be higher than before in N3. Here snipper can be place close to the corners to put down this kind of targets. Snippers have better weapon ranges, some times you can go backwards but not forwards, here is where the snipper can bright.

    We haven't "multisnippers" but ours are cheper in points and SWC, so for a "single" ARO group they could do the trick: ghulams, alhawa, hunzakuts... And if we want some "heavier" we could choose, horlack, lasiq, ayar... We have plenty of options. Some could work mostly as ARO pieces, but others, in some cases, could work too as hunters.
     
  19. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Just keep in mind that the +1 burst does not apply in ARO. So, as far as ARO Sniper duty goes, Knauf is only improved by the MSV1 changes.
     
  20. Natsymir

    Natsymir Well-Known Member

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    I think Haqq snipers took a very hard hit in N4. A large culprit is the fact that their shock damage got much worse, due to all the NWI models having shock immunity now. But that's not the only reason.

    Previously, we had one of the best snipers in the game in the form of the humble Ghulam sniper for 16 points. She was a standard feature in all my lists, being able to threaten almost everything due to her range band. I used her primarily as an ARO piece, covering any long but small fire lane. But now that our lists have become limited to 15 models, and Nadir and Daylami are auto-includes due to the damned overpowered link teams that are everywhere, there's no space for her in my lists anymore.

    The Tuareg sniper also took a bit of a hit. She was good at surprise AROs against the, in N3, ubiquitous warbands, and placed in a tower, I once had her mow down four or five Taigha creatures, as well as a Noctifer with missile launcher. But now, the game seem to be shock full of TAGs and ultra-hard heavy infantry that she doesn't stand a chance against. She's also eclipsed by the Nadir, as he's almost compulsory due to being one of our few effective tools against link teams. Still, she can do good work, if you somehow manage to remove everything that can easily murder her. But it gets harder and harder to justify bringing her because the Nadir does her thing, surprise AROs, much better. Her low BS has always been a problem as well.

    The Lasiq Sniper, however, might actually have gotten slightly better, due to now having MOV 4-4. She was never a good ARO piece, due to her Mimetism -3 not being enough to protect her, but rather an active turn piece thanks to her climbing plus, and her increased MOV makes her better able to seek out those long fire lanes that she needs. She also has the +1 damage profile for 2 points extra, and that might actually be worth it now. I actually had her bring down a Zeta TAG today, however, in the end it was not worth it as it basically cost me all my orders for that round, and the enemy managed to heal the Zeta back up again afterwards. Still, she did manage to both get decent odds against a main battle TAG (it had one shot at 8, she had two at 12 - not great, but I'll take it), and actually take three wounds out of it. Had she had the Damage+1 profile, she might have done even better.

    Those are the three snipers I've run in Haqq. The other sniper profiles, I haven't even looked at in a long time, so I can't speak for them. But I'm curious about the Hunzakut sniper. It seems he could get quite positive modifiers out of his Infiltration and Mimetism and Surprise shot, like a very low-budget Tuareg - after all, they have the same BS. I actually wanna try him out.

    The Hortlak Janissaire with AP sniper rifle is another profile that's interesting. It costs 10 points more than the Lasiq, which is a very hefty sum indeed - I'm not certain it's worth it. But it does pack mimetism as well as MSV1 and AP ammo, and has BS13, which could make for quite favorable exchanges if you manage to outrange your enemy. Edit: But okay, I guess at that point you might as well pay 4 points more to get Armand Le Muet...
     
    #20 Natsymir, Oct 14, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2020
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