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Sixth Sense, LOF and Silent.

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Gero, Jul 12, 2019.

  1. Gero

    Gero Active Member

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    A Speculo Killer in Impersonation State Marker, declares move against a Fireteam:Core of 5 members, none of them have LOF with the speculo until she reaches Base contact with one member, the members without LOF delay their ARO declaration since they do not suffer the effects of stealth...

    However, the Speculo declares CC ATTACK out of LOF and 180front arc of the Trooper she reached base contact with, using a knife.

    Can the members without LOF who delayed their ARO declare Change Facing, Hack or Reset?
    Furthermore, can the Engaged Troop declare BS Attack, Dodge, CC attack or any ARO he would have been able to perform during the speculos movement?

    How doee Silent Interact with Sixth Sense L2 in these cases?
     
  2. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Lets call the FT member who end up in CC, fusilier 1 and the other fusilier 2 to 5.

    For fusilier 2 to 5 :
    If they don't have LoF on the speculo at all : they can only declare change facing (because speculo declare move in their ZoC), Speculo is not hackable so no hacking (except white noise if you were nomad/aleph/ac)
    If they have LoF when the speculo reach base to base : they can shoot him when he is in CC (-6 to the attack and risk hitting fusilier 1)
    If they have LoF 1 mm before the speculo reach base to base : they can shoot him before he reach CC

    For fusilier 1 : Sixth sense and silent are opposing each other. Both are exception to the normal rule so no reason for one to beat the other from a RAW point of view. From a RAI point of view, I will go with sixth sense allows you to react because this is the intent of SS lvl 2 : you can always ARO an attack. But this is more my opinion than something backed up by rules
     
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  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Not 100% sure but, let me try:
    when he reach b2b he lose the marker state, but for having SSL2 all members may decide to delay ARO or use any ARO that doesn't require LoF (assuming none is looking at him). They cannot attack him with a BS attack that require LoF because that needs that the attack target them.

    No because the rules of Silent prevent it.

    He can declare CC attack, Reset or Dodge as normal for being engaged. He could also declare non LoF AROs like Hacking or Jammer because Stealth doesn't affect him and the speculo counts as a model for the entire order. However he only gained the ability to attack back without LoF when he was attacked in CC, so no BS attack that requires LoF because he gains that ability when he is already engaged.

    It would be simmilar to this:
     
  4. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    False. SSL2 doesn't allow the use of Stealth, so any FT member with the IMP token moving in his ZoC will be able to declare Change facing, Reset or any ZoC ARO. But, you should be cautious as if this is the case, the guy engaged in CC will lose SSN2 and will suffer the drawback of this if he doesn't declare change facing as well.
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As Ayadan says, Sixth Sense will prevent the use of Stealth anyway.

    This means that everyone in the Fireteam in Zone of Control will be able to delay their reactions, and will get their reactions no matter what the active trooper does with their second Short Skill.

    So the options become:
    • Active trooper does nothing/Idle - the Engaged team member can Dodge, Reset, CC Attack. These will be unopposed.
    • Active trooper Dodges - as above, but any CC Attack would now be opposed.
    • Active trooper does CC Attack - now the rest of Sixth Sense will kick in, and as there isn't a Zero Visibility Zone involved, the reactive trooper gets to ignore facing so can declare BS Attack.
    Arkhos94 and Ayadan covered the situation for the other team members, notably that declaring a different ARO with different team members will cause some troopers to leave the Fireteam and lose bonuses.
     
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  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Does this also works like this for Silent weapons (the case presented for the OP)?.

    If I'm reading this right, after the impersonator reach b2b they have an oportunity to declare ARO or Delay (SSL2), in this moment they can declare any legal ARO.
    But if they decide to delay the ARO and a Silent Weapon is used in the second part of the order, then the silent rules should apply, right?
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It doesn't matter - Silent only prevents AROs from the declaration of the attack, so it must be used with Stealth to work. If another part of the Order has already generated AROs (the Move) then Silent won't have any effect at all*.

    *Obviously it will still work on other nearby troopers who don't have Sixth Sense.
     
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  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Uff, I don't see this one...
    The SSL2 wording is this one:
    The FAQ is says this:
    So, why a trooper can't attack through a Zero Visibility Zone but can attack in his rear arc versus a CC attack. In both cases the trooper is ignoring the LoF. It should be both or none.
     
  9. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    You should re-read silent :

    Silent. If you use this weapon or piece of Equipment to make an Attack while outside the target's LoF, that target cannot react by Changing Facing or apply the Warning! rule unless he survives the Attack (that is, isn't in a Null state after the Attack is resolved).
    • Additionally, enemies without LoF in whose Zone of Control the Attack took place or was declared cannot declare AROs or apply the Warning! rule unless the target survives the Attack. This means that these enemies must delay their ARO declaration until after the Attack is resolved.
    Silent prevent ARO generation when attacking from :
    - the victim of the attack if no LoF (unless he survives)
    - other ennemy trooper if no LoF (unless the target survive)

    But ARO is already generated due to the move action (because stealth is cancelled by SS), so silent has no effect here.
     
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  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ok, this part makes sense now. Ty!
    But it may use an example or a clarification box... it's not an easy one to grasp.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Sixth Sense doesn't let you ignore Zero Visibility Zones, in exactly the same way that it doesn't let you ignore intervening troops, intervening Total Cover etc.

    Sixth Sense interacts with Zero Visibility Zones by letting the trooper ignore the -6BS MOD for shooting back. But that only happens when you are the target of a BS Attack through the Zero Visibility Zone.

    You get to shoot back when shot in the back because of "regardless the facing of the user".
     
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  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I see this one now; this is not happening because of the LoF, but for the rules of the ZVZ
    So BS attack is not a legal ARO unless you are shot in the first place.

    The FAQ wording was what confused me:
    That's the wrong reasoning, which lead me to the wrong answer in this case. Could this answer get revised in the next FAQ, it's missleading.

    But ey, good to know how this really works!
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As usual, I'm not claiming the wording is 100% clear (and I'd love to re-write Sixth Sense from scratch), but...
    Why is that the wrong reasoning? The reactive trooper only has LoF in base contact because the Zero Visibility Zone is blocking LoF beyond base contact. The reactive trooper hasn't been shot, to grant LoF 'through' the ZVZ.

    Without the Zero Visibility Zone, being able to ignore facing would give the trooper LoF outside base contact.
     
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  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I'll elaborate:
    The reason he can't declare BS attack is not because "The active trooper is only visible when they are in base contact." (in fact is doubly missleading because in B2B there is no LoF, CC attack just require being in B2B). The reason that model can't shoot is: the ZVZ rules forbid any BS attack unless you are targeted first with a BS attack.

    So the LoF justification may create the following rulling: "If the active model reach b2b outside of the LoF to a reactive model with SSL2, that reactive model can't declare BS attack because he only gains LoF when the active model reach B2B" Which can be extrapolated to other game scenarios like approaching from the rear arc.

    My point is the FAQ need to be clear that the reasons are the ZVZ rules (legal Skills/AROs that can be declared are restricted), not the lack of LoF.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    "Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with."
     
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  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Fair point; btw, where is that line? I can't find it in the wiki.
    But anyway, the LoF was just a (wrong) remark, it wasn't necessary for the rest of the reasoning; that FAQ should get reworded imo.

    EDIT: Found it! http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Line_of_Fire_(LoF)... I have to reread the basic rules once in a while XD
     
    #16 Ogid, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    It's in the LoF rules. But it's still part of the answer - there was no LoF beyond base contact.
     
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  18. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that even if that line is right, the justification is not.
    A model that reach base to base from the rear arc is also only visible when he reach b2b. However the BS attack can be declared because the rules of a ZVZ aren't active and let you declare that skill ignoring the LoF and front arc requisites.

    Let me try something, is this right?
    Q: A reactive trooper with Sixth Sense is facing away from the active trooper. The active trooper moves into base contact (without entering in the front arc of the reactive model) with their first Short Skill and then declares a CC Attack. Can the reactive trooper declare a BS Attack?
    A: No. The active trooper is only visible when they are in base contact. As BS Attacks cannot be declared while in base contact, the trooper with Sixth Sense cannot declare a BS Attack.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    No. They can declare a BS Attack because they got a temporary 360 Visor against anyone attacking them, so had LoF beyond base contact while the active trooper was moving into contact.

    As above. They can react with a BS Attack, because they had LoF as the active trooper moved up.

    Don't forget the 'everything happens at once' foundation for Infinity, ignoring facing will apply to the whole Order.
     
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