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Sixth Sense Dodge when not attacked

Discussion in 'Rules' started by QueensGambit, Dec 18, 2020.

  1. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Trooper A has Sixth Sense. Enemy trooper B moves, outside LoF but inside ZoC. A declares Dodge as ARO.

    Does A suffer the -3 penalty for no LoF?

    I had assumed no, but it was recently pointed out to me that a Requirement of Sixth Sense is that the trooper be the target of an attack. Does SS still negate the -3 penalty when A is not the target of an attack?
     
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  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    *popcorn*
     
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  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    We already know that there's a dot point in the Sixth Sense rules effect that isn't contingent on the requirements of the skill being met (stealth is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense skill - which is repeated elsewhere including in the page for the Stealth Skill, so by implication isn't beholden to Sixth Sense's target-of-an-attack requirement).

    Ergo, the requirement section of the skill is not necessarily universal. That doesn't actually answer whether it's meant to be a requirement for sixth sense models declaring dodge against troops moving in their ZOC, though.
     
  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    And here I will humbly request (again) that skills written with effects that are contingent on specific requirements (but not the over all skill) have those requirements actually written in the "effects" section of the skill box as an if...then... statement set of bullets. Nested bullets would be nice, too.
     
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  5. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
    Warcor

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    I think we need answer on that question, cause wording on ignoring stealth is very confusing for the dodge part as well.
    @ijw , @HellLois
     
    #5 Kwisatz Haderach, Apr 13, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
  6. Methuselah

    Methuselah Active Member

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    Seems like the requirement line in Sixth Sense should be removed. All of the relevant effect state when they need other requirements (e.g. If the user is the target of a BS Attack through a Zero Visibility Zone)
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I know my gaming group, and I am afraid that unless this is addressed by a FAQ, added to the Wiki or answered by an 'Infinity Rules Staff' member they are not going to allow a trooper to be in contact silhoutte with themselves. let a trooper use Sixth Sense without first being attacked. :cold_sweat:

    (it worked before, it's worth trying)
     
    #7 inane.imp, Apr 14, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  8. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    We literally had HelLois answer this today, you can. You even liked his answer. What more proof they need? :D
     
  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I fixed it, are you happy now [emoji14]
     
  11. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    still not worked, you must read the SPELL correctly, from the begining! :joy:
    i will try short version:
    @ijw @HellLois HELP!
     
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  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    So, trying to think this through... as was pointed out above, we know that at least one bullet point of Sixth Sense applies when the trooper isn't the target of an attack, so we can't assume one way or the other whether the "no mods to Dodge" bullet also applies when the trooper isn't the target of an attack. The best we can manage is an educated guess.

    If the bullet only applies when the trooper is the target of an attack, then it helps in the following scenarios:
    - SS trooper is attacked with Speculative Fire.
    - SS trooper is clipped by a template weapon aimed at a different trooper, without LoF to the attacker.
    - SS trooper is hit by a mine (assuming a mine is an Attack...?)

    In all the other scenarios I can think of where the SS trooper is attacked, the other bullets of SS would already allow them to Dodge with no penalty (by granting them deemed LoF).

    Do we think the bullet is meant to apply only in those limited circumstances?

    ...I'm not sure. Now that I've written this out, it's less helpful than I'd hoped it would be :-(

    Edited: one bullet point of Sixth Sense, not Dodge.
     
    #13 QueensGambit, Apr 27, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2021
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's an extremely dishonest interpretation. You, sir, are clearly arguing in bad faith and up with it I will not put.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Don't you mean Sixth Sense? Dodge doesn't require the trooper to be the target of an attack, so I assume you're referring to "Stealth is not effective against Troopers with the Sixth Sense Special Skill."

    Strictly speaking, the line you are questioning is the only line in Sixth Sense that could possibly need the skill to have requirements at all, all other lines have an extra prerequisite of being attacked or, as in the case of the Stealth line, is nonsensical if attacked is a requirement.
     
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  15. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    I think our problem it isn't Sixth Sense in N4 but Sixth Sense in N3, and our memory on how it worked. If we forget about N3, the wording in N4 is really clear with sixth sense. The trooper must be the target of an attack: direct template, speculative... whatever. It is no more an example which is contradictory against the rule, as we had in N3.

    So, if the trouper with SS isn't targeted by an attack it will dodge with Phys -3.

    The only "exception" in this case could be stealth, but because it has in his description the phrase

    IMPORTANT
    Stealth is not effective against Deployable Weapons, or against Troopers with
    the Sixth Sense Special Skill.

    You don't need to "activate" SS in order to avoid Stealth, you only need posses the hability.


    Best regards.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Urobros in a way I agree, but without fully calling all of the rules into question I do think there is merit to asking the question whether Sixth Sense is actually meant to have a requirement at all.

    As most effects of Sixth Sense are calling out the trooper being attacked as an integral part to the skill working (honestly only one of the bullet points actually needs it) and the fact that we know there's been a few mistakes with copy-pasting. It isn't outlandish to expect the offending bullet point to have been written with a "if attacked" qualifier just like the one about Surprise Attack (superfluous, you have to be attacked to be affected by those MODs) or the one about being allowed to Dodge (which is only repeating parts of the first bullet point, but more confusing).
     
  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Yup! Edited.

    That's a good point, and weighs in favour of the interpretation that the bullet only applies when you're attacked.

    I don't find that one to be all that persuasive. You also don't "activate" SS to, for example, avoid the Surprise Attack mod. The Surprise Attack mod just isn't applied to troopers who have SS. Just like a trooper with Mimetism(-3) doesn't "activate" it, a -3 mod is just automatically imposed on a trooper who shoots at someone possessing the Mimetism(-3) skill.

    Yeah, looking again at that other bullet about Dodge: "Troopers with Sixth Sense in Engaged State may declare Dodge from Attacks outside their LoF."

    As far as I can tell, that line is only relevant in the convoluted scenario in the SS example. The SS trooper is in the Engaged state with an enemy. There is smoke nearby. An enemy with MSV shoots through the smoke at the SS trooper (into the CC) from outside ZoC.
    - Bullet 1 gives the SS trooper 360 degree LoF despite the Engaged state. However, they still can't see the attacker because of the smoke.
    - Bullet 3 doesn't give the SS trooper LoF through the smoke. The Zero Viz Zone rule would allow the trooper to shoot back despite no LoF, and SS would remove the -6 mod to do so. However, being in the Engaged state prevents the trooper from shooting back.
    - So the SS trooper would be unable to Dodge, if not for bullet 5.

    So, bullet 5 seems to only apply in very rare circumstances. That supports the view that bullet 4 might also be meant to apply only in a few circumstances (i.e. only when attacked).
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    This just got raised on Discord.

    If you assume that 6S requires an attack to function:

    1. Alice Moves into S2S with Bob from outside of Bob's LOF
    2. Bob has 6S so he has an eligible ARO, but the BS Attack preliminary ruling prevents him declaring BS Attack because he does not have LOF. Bob can only declare AROs that work without LOF.
    3. Alice declares CC Attack.

    This doesn't feel like it's intentional.

    I think you should be able to go:

    1. Alice Moves into S2S with Bob from outside of Bob's LOF
    2. Bob goes "I use 6S, if the Requirements of 6S are met then I'll have LOF. Based on that LOF I declare a BS Attack."
    3. Alice declares CC Attack
    5. Bob's ARO was valid
    6. The requirements of 6S were met so Bob did have LOF when he declared the BS Attack, therefore the requirements of the BS Attack were met.

    Does that seem right, or should I break it out into its own thread?
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The rules say this, with my added bold emphasis:

    Allows the user to respond to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at them by enemies outside their LoF. For the purposes of drawing Line of Fire to the attackers, the user has a 360˚ LoF arc, and if they are in Engaged State, they can draw LoF to attackers outside their Close Combat.
    Alice never attacks Bob from outside of Bob's LOF if she uses CC Attack, so Bob's BS Attack ARO will never be validated through the use of Sixth Sense - using the conventional interpretation of how BS Attacks work. Let me put that into doubt below.

    --

    Recently, I have been told of an interpretation on LOF requirement for BS Attacks used by a very large online community; Line of Fire requirement of a skill is not the same as Line of Fire used to distribute burst. Lines of Fire exist regardless of facing and as long as the unit satisfies Line of Fire using LOF Arc when checking requirements they can distribute burst along any Line of Fire regardless of facing.
    Given how reciprocal LOF was ruled to interpret what "draw LOF" actually means, I can see how this interpretation is probably correct, so this means that you'll always be able to shoot (including with direct template weapons) a unit that moves into CC with you and regardless of facing unless they do so while in a zero visibility zone.
    That is to say; Bob doesn't need Sixth Sense to shoot Alice.
     
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