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Sin-Eater vs Reaktion Zond as ARO Piece

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Ghost87, Feb 5, 2018.

  1. Ghost87

    Ghost87 Member

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    Hello Fellows,

    the ever-lasting discussion about a great defensive unit in Nomads/Bakunin to deny the opponent open spaces to advance gets a new chapter. I would like to discuss the pros and cons of both units, when they make sense and when not so much and want to know your thoughts about the topic.

    First of all I'm sure none of the two is superior over the other, both fill a niche and it depends on personal preference. But lets compare the differences (to the HMG Sin-Eater for obvious reasons)

    To give it a personal touch or another view, i will amend the kind of scenario I want to use the unit most of the times.


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    1. Balistic Skill (Reactive Turn):
    Looking at the stat line, the Sin-Eater is by far superior in terms of shooting. BS13 on the SE stands against BS11 on the TR Drone. Given that the HMG ARO Piece will primarily be used to shoot from DZ to DZ or cover a long alley it will be +3 prior to opponent mods. What looks like a clear win to the Sin-Eater will be easily compensated by the ability of the REM to benefit from hacking buffs like Marksmanship LV2 allowing the Drone to ignore opponent cover which most of the times applies. But this buff costs an order and is not available in turn 1 if you are not first player (as long as you don't also have an EVO Hacker in your army) which is a the most important turn for the ARO piece. In terms of whole-game usability i would say the BS13 vs BS11(no cover mod) evens out.

    2. Ballistic Skill (Active Turn):
    I differentiate between active and reactive turn because although the special skill Neutocinetics of the Sin-Eater enables him to use his full burst in ARO just like Total Reaction of the Reaktion Zond, the trade-off is a burst of 1 in the active turn. This renders an HMG Sin-Eater rather useless because beside the great range and damage value the most important property of an HMG is its burst value of 4. So we would only pick him in our army if I need a an ARO unit which to put on the board to deny area and forget about him (which is indeed the case for me most of the times).

    3. Defense/Survivability:
    Ok, we took a unit our my army which is visible to our opponent at least in certain positions and which sole purpose is to drive him/her crazy by shooting at everything that wants to advance. Nobody should be surprised that such a unit lives a short life and dies a painful death accompanied with shouts of relief on the opponent side.

    Here the Sin-Eater really shines. He brings an armor of 3 compared to the Reaktion Zond which arrives incompletely assembled with an ARM value of 0. Additionally the Mimetism camouflage makes him slightly harder to hit by non-MSV enemies. Nothing to complain about on a medium infantry. After he receives the inevitable shot to the face he may get a second change because with above-average cover and above-average armor he is likely to get only one wound. On entering unconscious state two advantages over the REM kick in: He goes prone and therefore in full cover most of the times. And when trying to resurrect him, we can make use of his CUBE to re-roll the die on a fail which is not possible for the REM. Another advantage which I see (!) is that i do not need to bring a dedicated engineer for my ARO piece. This accounts for my play-style only because I do not bring TAGs and few REMs in Bakunin and even in Vanilla only from time to time. The Reaktion Zond however has the benefit that due to its Remote Presence skill it has two states of unconscious which are both repaired with one action. This makes it really hard to kill with one shot but as I don't mind bringing an engineer just for the TR drone (see above) it means nothing to me.

    Movement/Agility:
    Although this should not be most important property of a unit which builds a sandbag wall, flips open a camping chair and plugs in a coffee machine prior to fighting, it is not unlikely that an opponent which is not trying to kill our ARO piece will avoid it so it will be necessary to change the position. Another reason to change the position is because in general it is not smart to neglect a mightly weapon like an HMG in active turn.

    The agility and movement range of the Reaktion Zond is far superior to the Sin-Eater. While the Reaktion Zond is able to move 6-4 which enables it to cross quite a distance and still shoot with the second short order, the Sin-Eater joins the ranks of the other rather slow 4-2 MI Nomad units. I would not recommend to move great distances with him but this is rarely necessary thanks to his long range weapons. The Reaktion Zond supplements its nice movement range with the Climbing Plus skill which enables it to climb a wall up and down as short order literally walking up wall vertically. This enables it to get a shooting position and move back in total cover. But beware, it is not allowed to use cover at all while in vertical movement.
    The Religious Troops special skill of the Sin-Eater enables him to keep sticking his head out without a roll despite the fact that he got a shot in the face. However if we want to go prone we need to make this WIP roll but what chicken would retreat a Sin-Eater? More or less the same applied for the Reaktion Zond. Its Remote Presence Skill equips it with the Courage skill which enables us to choose to seek cover or stay. However as it is a REM we are not able to to prone.

    Weak points:
    Although we would expect our ARO piece to die sooner rather than later, our opponent could tinker out a nifty trick to get rid of it. For example an air-dropped or infiltrated assault hacker would be a serious thread to our BTS3 REM. This could also be achieved by a Pitcher. On the other hand we could pile of a full emergency room of doctors around our Sin-Eater, it would not help much if he was hit with Shock-ammunition. Keep this in mind during deployment.

    Costs:
    This is the biggest pro of the Reaktion Zond. Only 26 Points and 1 SWC for a Total Reaction unit with an HMG? Total no-brainer. The Sin-Eater comes for 33 Points and 2 SWC, you are paying the Points for the +2 BS and +3 ARM but the 2 SWC really hurt, pay this premium only if the rest of your list is finished and you have some SWC in spare. On the Points-side it really depends on your play style and if you want to recover your ARO piece once it is down. A Daktari with Zondbot fits in almost any list and a Reverend Healer is part of the very capable Kusanagi/Custodier/Healer Haris in Bakunin. If you want to repair the REM you must include the costs of an Engineer if you don't already have one in your list.
    While it has to be mentioned that you must also take a hacker into consideration as prerequisite for a REM, I suppose you already discovered that Nomads are awesome hackers and field one in all of your lists anyway.


    Conclusion:
    Both units perform comparable as ARO units. While the Reaktion Zond is more agile and can take one more hit before leaving the board the Sin-Eater is harder to kill due to its mimetism and armor. It also aims better out of the box and is immune to hacking. Although it will be hard for your opponent to bring a hacker to your DZ. I would decide which one to take depending on the remaining SWC, the presence of Medic/Engineer and most importantly if I want to use it in my active turn.

    Please share your experiences and amend/correct me if I got anything wrong. I myself am currently curious when to take one of the two.
     
    #1 Ghost87, Feb 5, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2018
    ChoTimberwolf, loricus and Lothair like this.
  2. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    One massively important thing I would note is that the default method of taking out a TR bot is to stack mods so it auto-misses with it's HMG, and then just whack it with a couple of DA rounds from a MULTI Sniper. I typically like to use the Moira Sniper or a Spektr Sniper in Nomads for this, but pretty much every faction can do it in some fashion, and when it gets to -12 to BS for the TR bot, it auto-misses if they go for a shoot ARO, the alternative being a very crappy Dodge. The reason for this? Even hitting on 1s, with 4 dice you've got pretty solid crit chance.

    Sin-Eaters can't be made to auto-miss, because the modifier caps out at -12, and they have BS 13, so you'll always have that crit possibility. That's kind of a big deal. Plus they have a superior Dodge for when you aren't fishing for crits, the Mimetism, ARM and so on. For actual ARO purposes, the Sin-Eater HMG is a lot stronger than the Reaktion, it's the Active turn where it massively suffers.
     
  3. TriggerPuller9000

    TriggerPuller9000 Poverty Orde Wingate

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    It's easy to overlook the fact that the Sin Eater has a Pistol. Everyone is all caught up on the B4 ARO, but nobody expects to get Glocked by the B2 pistol in +3 range, whereas the HMG would be throwing 4 dice at -3.

    For example, Uxia w/ Assault Pistols vs. Sin Eater (no cover mods, though the pistol is still better if she's in cover)-

    HMG:

    Active Player
    44.07% Uxia McNeill inflicts 1 or more wounds on Sin-Eater Observants (Unconscious)
    15.09% Uxia McNeill inflicts 2 or more wounds on Sin-Eater Observants (Dead)

    Failures
    27.28% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    28.65% Sin-Eater Observants inflicts 1 or more wounds on Uxia McNeill (Unconscious)
    7.41% Sin-Eater Observants inflicts 2 or more wounds on Uxia McNeill (Dead)

    Pistol:

    Active Player
    35.14% Uxia McNeill inflicts 1 or more wounds on Sin-Eater Observants (Unconscious)
    10.02% Uxia McNeill inflicts 2 or more wounds on Sin-Eater Observants (Dead)

    Failures
    30.16% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    34.70% Sin-Eater Observants inflicts 1 or more wounds on Uxia McNeill (Unconscious)
    5.65% Sin-Eater Observants inflicts 2 or more wounds on Uxia McNeill (Dead)
     
  4. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    The Reaktion Zond is way better. Here's my take on it:

    Reactive Firepower: Sin Eater He has better BS, mimetism, and armor. This is his biggest (and only, IMO) edge.
    Active Firepower: Reaktion Zond Can make full use of HMG with supportware. Sin Eater always activates with high risk, unless it's the MSR.
    Mobility: Reaktion Zond Has climbing plus and 6-4 movement. Very easy to reposition - I often park on tall buildings and walls.
    Resilience: Reaktion Zond This is counterintuitive, but hear me out. The Reaktion Zond is easier to disable, but harder to actually remove from the fight. If the RZ takes a wound, they're forced to bury more orders into finishing it off, or else you can easily repair (it is taller than a zondbot) and be instantly back in the fight. If the Sin Eater takes a wound, he can be doctored, but he has to figure out how to stand up - it is going to cost an order and he may not make it.

    My experience with neurocinetics is that the superior firepower of the Sin Eater doesn't help him much. In all cases, your opponent will bring out a big bad to cope. Since a Sin Eater normally is parked front and center, whatever badass comes out to kill him will never be poorly placed when it's done. My best Sin Eater experiences have been when I hold the MSR in reserve and put him in a narrow lane to outrange a particular piece.

    Disclaimer: I have never used the spitfire Sin Eater, but it's on my bucket list. The more I think about it, the less bad it seems...
     
  5. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I'm a big fan of the Mk12 to cover mid field objectives, but the Spitfire would be interesting in a mission with deeper deployment areas or even Powerpack.
     
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  6. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Great job! A few things:

    You can reroll repair rolls against units with Remote Presence.

    EVO has two restrictions preventing you from giving it Assisted Fire on your first reactive turn. One, it can only activate Gadget:EVO in this manner, which does not have a Marksmanship program. Two, Gadget:EVO REM programs only works on (every) REM with their OWN repeater.

    Also, even with Marksmanship the Reaktion Zond doesn't shoot as well unless the enemy has a MSV.


    I also usually don't have an engineer which makes taking a Reaktion Zond annoying.
     
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  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I've used the Spitfire, and it's good. You need to get him moving up the board and not being a crazy overwatch turret, but he can lock shit down very effectively with the Spitfire.

    The MSR version I've never given a go, always wondered whether he's stealth the best one there is.
     
  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    To complete this : Reaktion Zond (like all TR REM) are easyly repairable if you have an engineer. Your opponent knows it and will sink order to destroy it (instead of leaving it unconscious).
    Also, as a footnote, Reaktion Zond is shock immune, sin eater is not and can be downed with a single viral or shock attack
     
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  9. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It's the one I mainly use. It makes HMGs better against him but still not good, while it stops snipers from easily countering him. So I figure if it makes HMGs okay but stops snipers from being amazing it's an overall positive tradeoff.

    I think the HMG is better for dunking on inexperienced players which probably makes it better for tournament.

    edit: disclaimer: I mostly play Corregidor so I don't use them a ton.
     
  10. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Total Reaction: Climbing plus, shock inmunity, 2 Unconscious levels, 1 SWC cheaper. Can receive Supportware to ignore enemy cover and apply shock ammo. And 360º means it can cover your deployment zone nicely.

    Sin-Eater: better dodge and better CD.

    To me they cover different roles. Stacking a TR with a Tsyklon Feuerbach makes an ARO rock hard to dislodge to enemies without MSV2-3 and smoke, and the real cost is the Tsyklon's compared to the Sin Eater. Throw an EVO and some flash pulse cheap remotes...
    The Sin Eater, however, is a solid single ARO piece.
     
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  11. reaper1714

    reaper1714 Annoying genocidal machine

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    Exactly. And if you have a H+ in your list you can drop white noise on the Tsyklon or a cheap remote and get rid those nasty MSV AROers :)
     
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  12. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Sin eater is a much better piece on ARO duty. Better BS, mimetism and a bit of ARM - also, *much* better on turn #1, because of no marksmanship.

    HOWEVER, many times you need a piece to pull double duty. The bot is perfectly usable on the active turn - bs11 HMG isnt *that* much, but as soon as you add marksmanship you are looking at something that is fearsome. Also, 6-4 with climbing plus makes it very mobile.

    Basically - you need a ARO only piece? Get the Sin. You don't have the space to dump 30ish points on a single ARO piece that can be crited out of the game? The Drone is a better choice
     
  13. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    It's the climbing plus really that puts Reaktions over Sin Eaters for me. Typically when you have an ARO piece, it goes on a roof to get better coverage. Once something without climbing plus is up on the roof, it isn't coming down without some serious order expenditure. Reaktions are easy to re-position and get full burst in the active turn. Honestly it's never been a contest IMO.
     
  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The best part is to place the Reaktion on the side of a building and enjoy several benefits for the loss of cover: inmunnity to shared templates, "extension" of surface for a terrace, close companionship with the tsyklon and the flash pulse bot...
    What's not to love? XD

    I confess however that in aleph I almost never have the SWC to spare for a total reaction :(
     
  15. reaper1714

    reaper1714 Annoying genocidal machine

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    Sorry, but I can't picture what kind of deployment you mean... In the top of a building? Isn't that obvious? Also... immunity to shared templates? are the other bots in the stories below providing repeater coverage but since they aren't on the same level you can't get them all at once?
     
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The TR is on the side of the building (and since ALL the base needs to be in contact with the wall, there is no way a circular template will get both!) and the flash pulse is on top of the building... like this:

    img.png

    The red square is the Climbing Plus remote (yes, it won't get any cover...) while the blue one is another remote like the Tsyklon. This lets you place 2 remotes together for area saturation, forcing the enemy to spend more orders and complicating the active turn of the enemy, if there is a good fire line at the front.

    Also, the black box that represents the building does not need to be able to hold both remotes... or you can place the Sin Eater as the blue piece!
     
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  17. reaper1714

    reaper1714 Annoying genocidal machine

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    Very interesting strategy... I understand that we're looking at the remotes not from the top but sideways... In this situation, wouldn't a chain rifle from below impact both remotes with the Tsyklon getting a Ph-3 roll to dodge (-3 more for being a rem) the template it can't see?
    That's better than having them both in the top, however, where I single template can render them unconscious with a lucky strike.
     
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  18. T. Rex Pushups

    T. Rex Pushups Well-Known Member

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    How do you repair the TR Bot?
     
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Yes, chain rifles or flamethrowers can be a danger. However, I was covered (Morlocks), plus the TR was on the side because that was the less-covered flank. And a warband approaching would need to pass close to a flash pulse remote, an Interventor, the Smart Missile Launcher remote (which would be the real prize there, mind you), and then the "castle", which was the red (TR remote), the blue (Flash pulse remote) and the Tsyklon) to the side of the flash pulse). I had reserved the TR remote for last, so... it was an impulsive placing that gave me tons of benefits there XD

    Didn't have the option... when the enemy take a TR down, it better kill it totally, lest the nightmare comes back XD.
    In this case, however, the TR's silhouette was close enough to the ground (it was not a tall building) the engineer close by could go and repair it from the ground (but not in Prone state).
     
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  20. reaper1714

    reaper1714 Annoying genocidal machine

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    Wouldn't a TR with climbing+ fall to the ground when rendered unconscious? All their equipment and abilities are disabled after all...