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Simultaneous maestro and brainblast.

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Foxbringer, Nov 21, 2018.

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  1. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Enemy asura-hacker run through our repeater and was hit by maestro and brainblast programms(or got a shot with normal ammo).
    She failed both saves. So what happens next:
    1. She loses all(2) wounds and enters nwi after failing maestro save and then dies after failing normal save.
    2. She loses 1 wound after failing normal and then she loses all remaining wounds(1) and enters nwi(unconscious) after failing maestro.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Resolution is simultaneous with no inter-dependencies. As I don't see how Maestro can properly enumerate the number of wounds lost (simultaneously failing 10 Maestro vs. failing 1 Maestro results in the same number of wounds taken). Likely Maestro (or similar) effects would pile together and cancel out all but one effect. I'd say that the Asura dies from this result.
     
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  3. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    I suppose that she have 2 w->loses 2 via maestro and 1 more via bb
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Please see my edited response :)
     
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  5. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    active player chooses order
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Based on?
     
  7. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    I think... If I didn't understand wrong what are you saying, the problem is "maestro" go to unconscious state, no matter how many wounds have the troop profile, and in the same order the model recive one or two more woundos for another source, them if the model is now in NWI he will dies, but I'am pretty sure that none of this happening.

    All happends simultaneusly, so:

    The Asura have 2 wounds + NWI
    She recives 2 impacts (without no specials effects) and makes the armour rolls, failing, so she could go unconscious or NWI (because when all happends she still had 2 wounds).
    She recives 1 impact from Maestro, wich puts she in uncounscious state if she fails her BTS roll. She did and she have to go into that state, the player can choose if activate or not NWI or go unconscious.

    You could resolve it reverse and you obtains the same result, because when the asure recives the impacts (regular ammo) she had 2 wounds. None of the effects go firsts. At least in this case. Is the same case if a TAG with Pilot recives more impacts than his Wounds, the extra go to the pilot, but the salvation rolls make against the value of the TAG armour until the TAG finally dies and the order ends.


    That is how this situation should be resolve. Is the same as you says in point 2. 2. She loses 1 wound after failing normal and then she loses all remaining wounds(1)
     
  8. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    The problem is: couple of players in our community(including me) say that effects of 2 failed saves (maestro and normal) stack and Asura should
    Fall unconscious - 1 w = dead
    (as @Mahtamori said)

    But other players disagree and say that this effects don't interrupt each other and Asura gets 1w and goes unconscious independently = stays unconscious...I think so...I don't understand this point of view and can't properly describe it.
     
  9. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Coulda sworn there was a part in the rules that said if there was 2 events that are occur simultaneously like this the active player chose the order.

    Might be misremembering
     
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  10. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    I can find only this:

    Q: When do you choose which point of the movement path the BS Attack (or any other similar Skill) is performed?
    A: In the Resolution step, when the players are about to measure distances. In case the order of declaration is important, the active player is the one who chooses who must declare it first.

    But it's not our case.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Yeah, the FAQ that Foxbringer quoted is the only thing close to having one player choose the sequence in which something is resolved. Anyway, my post wasn't really adding to the discussion, sorry. :-(

    My gut feeling on the actual topic would be that due to simultaneous resolution the Asura would end up Unconscious, as going to Dead involves resolving Maestro first, then resolving the other cause of damage.
     
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  12. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Simultaneous actions: Just before making rolls Asura had 2 wounds. I thought, that maestro deals 2 wounds(Because as wiki says: "Failing one BTS Roll causes the target to lose all points of his Wounds/STR Attribute and enter the Unconscious state, or equivalent" and Asura had 2 wounds at the moment of failing this roll)
    Or maestro just do "State:Unconscious" as written in programm chart.

    And also she loses 1 more wound from normal ammo and in total she loses 3 wounds and dies.(or she goes unconscious and loses 1 more wound and also dies)

    I'm sorry, but could you explain your point of view?
    (my inner self can understand it, but he can't beat my arguments)
    ((And I'm not Aleph|Combo player, but there is Scylla in Acontecimento and it is a very interesting situation, which might happen again even with 1w non nwi hacker, but it's still important))
     
    #12 Foxbringer, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  13. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    No, that's exactly the opposite of what Maestro does. It makes the target lose as many Wounds as will take them to zero/Unconscious, which is not a fixed amount. As Brainblast (or whatever the other source of damage happens to be) is doing one, Maestro only only needs to do one to reach Unconscious.

    It would be the same if the other source was doing 2W, as Maestro wouldn't need to do any. Assuming an Asura or other 2W target.
     
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  14. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    I meant deals 2W in our case, of cource. But your point of view implies that bb deals damage before maestro, isn't it?
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    No, I'm saying that Maestro doesn't care about quantity and doesn't inflict a set amount of damage, it simply reduces the trooper to 0.

    EDIT - so it's not a case of Maestro doing 2W and Brainblast doing 1W for a total of 3W, it's Brainblast doing 1W and Maestro at the same time reducing the target to 0, with no number of W attached.
     
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  16. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Thank you, but let me try to reject this for the last time: We simultaneously receive 2 effects: unconscious and -1W.
    Why they are NOT attached?
     
  17. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I think you aren't understand well the expediture order sequence...


    1. Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate.
    2. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper.
    3. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.
    4. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement.
    5. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill of the Order, if applicable. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement.
    6. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player can check whether new AROs are available, and declare those. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement.
    7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls.
    8. Effects: Players apply all effects of successful Orders or AROs, and make ARM/BTS Rolls.
    9. Conclusion: If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects.
    8. What is the effect of Maestro? Asura goes unconscius. What is the effect of failing one BTS against BrainBlast? Asura looses one wound (how many had the Asura at the beginning of the order (2). What happening in the end? Asura is unconscius and now the player can choose activate or not NWI. You don't have to stack any ammunitions effects.

    In this case Maestro save you tne need to make another wound to the asura. If your other weapon manages to deal 2 wounds to the asura, simply Maestro don't make any effect. Because the asura is now in Uncounscius state. You could resolve it or not. Don't matter. Same if you do in the other way. You fail Maestro, them the asura go (at the orders end) unconscius. Them, you don't need to resolve the 2 wounds of brainblast, because don't matter.

    Don't forget tha any effect, becomme isolated, wound, unconscius... Happends only at the end of the order. Not before and between the dice rolling.
     
    #17 Urobros, Nov 22, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
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  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    They are.
     
  19. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    Ok. I receive wounds and states as 2 different(not attached) effects. Got it.
     
  20. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
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    As @Urobros said, they are not. Or I just misunderstand meaning of your sentence.
     
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