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Silent and Sixth Sense

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Scribbler, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. Scribbler

    Scribbler Well-Known Member

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    Hi everyone,

    Yesterday, @DeepThought and I were playing a game, and the following situation occurred and we weren't sure how this would play out: Dart was behind a 5-man core team of Grunts who all had their backs turned to her. She fired her viral bow (coming out of camo) at one of the Grunts, and we weren't sure if that Grunt would get to react due to SSL2 or if the silent trait of the bow cancels the Sixth Sense.

    I'm pretty sure that the Grunt should have been able to react to Dart's attack, but we weren't 100% sure so we went with saying that the Grunts couldn't react and they all got wiped out by Dart because their backs were turned. Did we play that out right, or should the Grunts have been able to shoot back?

    Also, on a troop with the minelayer skill, is there a limit to how many mines can be deployed at the start of the game? The wiki doesn't provide a specific number, although I am pretty sure that it is only allowed for a minelayer to deploy one mine or repeater or whatever.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That's a tricky interaction that is not well explained in the rules. It was discussed recently here: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/sixth-sense-lof-and-silent.34161/
    I'd say:
    • Target of the attack: Can react thanks to SSL2, that's for sure, regardless of if Dart is inside or outside the ZoC (check the examples in SSL2)
    • Dart inside the ZoC of rest of Fireteam: Stealth is cancelled by SSL2 and Silent must be used with stealth; so they can declare change facing/hack/skill doesn't require LoF... (see the thread above)
    • Dart outside the ZoC of the rest of the Fireteam: Not 100% sure of this one; I'd say that as SSL2 and Stealth require being in the ZoC none of these trigger so they must wait until the FtF Dart/Grunt ends.
    Also yes, minelayer only let you deploy one deployable; check the examples in the ability.
     
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  3. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Silent only works if attacking from outside of LoF, and all it does is prevent the target from declaring the "Change Facing" ARO (the Warning! ruling is irrelevant at this stage). The Grunts all have SSL2, the one attacked isn't declaring "Change Facing" anyway, instead using the first Effect of Sixth Sense to react with either "Dodge" or "BS Attack" (or maybe "Engage" if you're close enough).
    Having SSL2 also means the Grunt(s) is immune to Surprise Shot and Stealth.
    So:
    • The Grunt being shot could react with Dodge or BS attack
    • The rest of the Grunts' reactions would depend on where Dart was in relation to them
      • Inside ZoC, they could delay their declaration (and should!) till after she had decided on a target for her BS attack, and all elect to do nothing so as not to drop anyone from the fireteam
      • Outside of ZoC, they couldn't react anyway
    • After resolving the attack either:
      • The targeted Grunt survived, then any other Grunts in the targeted Grunt's ZoC could use "Warning!" to turn to face Dart
      • The targeted Grunt died, no-one can use "Warning!" to turn to face (as per the Silent trait)
     
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  4. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    The Targeted Grunt can answer with BS ATTACK, Change Facing (due to ignoring stealth, so Dart inside ZOC allows Change Facing), Dodge,hack, reset...
    As @Cartographer said, the situation may change quite a bit if Dart is Outside ZOC and LOF.

    The Grunt targeted Can answer due to Sixth sense L2 which kicks-in when being the target of an attack.
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The answer provided by @Cartographer is immaculate as far as I can tell. Silent is quirky in that it doesn't explicitly need Stealth and poses restrictions on your opponent, even to the point where it breaks Sixth Sense slightly and prevents Change Facing (not that I think anyone in a Fireteam would ever want to Change Face in this situation)
     
  6. Tanan

    Tanan Member

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    Can 6th sense model respond with non-f2f ARO against out-of-LoF BS attack?

    For example, deploying a mine, Alert! and flamethrowers don’t trigger f2f rolls.
     
  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Only in their zone of control. If not they can't, because they are not the objective of the attack
     
  8. Tanan

    Tanan Member

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    You misunderstood me.

    6th sense level2:
    • Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user.
    Flamethrower (Direct Template) attacks don’t respond with Face to Face rolls, because they hit automatically and therefore can’t be used against attacks that come from outside his LoF.

    Or do I take the bolded part too literally? 6th sense can also respond to our-of-LoF attacks using AROs that aren’t f2f rolls?
     
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Right now SSL2 works officialy in a diferent way as written in the rules (it's supposed to give the attacked model 360 vision or something like that) so I'm not sure about this one.
    With the RAW I'd say:
    • Mine: it's not a FtF, so no.
    • Alert: it's not a FtF, so no.
    • Flamethrower: it's not a FtF, so no.
    But with the "the enemy hitted gain a 360 visor" so it could be yes to the 3 of them... check this thread: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/sixth-sense-lof-and-silent.34161/, and let me try to summon someone who can answer this better @ijw
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I misunderstood. If there is no roll, they can not make FtF roll. But that is not he only thing that 6th sense offers
     
  11. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    It also does allow a response even if not a F2F roll (which is why the whole thing needs to be redone). For example, you can shoot back against a direct template in your back arc... which implies that you could also respond with a template weapon against someone shooting you from your back arc.
     
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  12. Tanan

    Tanan Member

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    If Alert! is an allowed ARO in this no-LoF case, every friendly model in the army (except the attacked link member) gets Change Facing ARO regardless of distance and the result of attack.

    IMHO this isn’t game breaking. Sounding an alarm before being attacked or even seeing the completely silent attacker is just somewhat disturbing. 6th sense is a spooky skill.
     
  13. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

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    @Tanan states something that makes sense if the targeted unit has the sixth sense ability, but the rules (at least when we looked) seemed unclear whether it applies to the rest of the fireteam.
    @Scribbler and I were excitedly trying to work this out as this was a key facet to the outcome. By an oversight, none of the fireteam were looking behind them, and I'd found an angle on a building Dart could move to that put her completely behind all 6 grunts, so the question arose, who does the "Sixth Sense L2" extend to? The whole team? The whole team except the target?
    If so, does that mean every member's ZoC gets the benefit, or can Dart still pick each one except the grunt with SSL2 because they aren't the one being targetted? I mean, sensing direct threats to yourself is one thing, but your whole fireteam's welfare? How's that even supposed to be possible? That was where we ran into the quandry @Ogid summarized so well:

    It's tricky, and I was already feeling surprised Dart could lose her camo for shooting a silent weapon when nobody had LoS to her, although I had announced in advance I was unclear on the rules and was about to make a truly brilliant or utterly stupid move.

    I wasn't even sure use of an EM grenade would make a difference (not that it mattered this time though, as I'd packed mines on her instead)

    To summarize the outcome, the move we decided to agree upon was the grunt with SSL2 could turn to shoot back, but needed to have his one SSL2 grunt turn and shoot for the first attack before warning could take effect (he had a shotgun within optimal range, so it made sense, and seemed a fair compromise that I target the one who could react if he alone turned for the first shot, and we'd further consult the books another day). I got lucky and won the shoot-out with Dart, and he didn't make it in that turn, so Dart was free to go on a killing spree, and I spent most of my orders that round picking off the unsuspecting team before withdrawing to a reasonable distance with her climbing.
     
    #13 DeepThought, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  14. DeepThought

    DeepThought Active Member

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    BTW, Your assessment the whole Mine thing makes sense, although I hate to admit it. It actually didn't make a difference in the way things played out, and I would have corrected it if I'd known, but the rule breach never showed up until after we were done playing.

    I got the impression if one has "Minelayer", they could plant as many mines as they wanted within their ZoC when the time came to position them. Considering it requires Camo and Minelayer to make your opponent unsure of which is your soldier, and which is a landmine, I was trying to assert control over the field by keeping @Scribbler guessing. The use of more than one camouflaged landmine in that area is risky, as it makes it easier to figure out which is the minelayer (I mean, only the camo marker that was within ZoC of all the others could be the minelayer if placed too widely, and the landmines would destroy each other or fail to activate if there was no cover between them), it seemed the tradeoffs offset the benefits for deploying more than one, and my minelayer ended up playing sentry this way, as being unable to move the minelayer without giving away which one is the soldier is part of how one maintains that advantage.

    Limiting it to one per minelayer kinda frustrates me, as that would require at least two camouflaged minelayers (preferably with forward deployment) to make the venture worthwhile, however, I won't deny there is probably a reason for it. I admit they are very handy for defending an objective, although hardly more than a tool for slowing your opponent down, not confronting them.
     
    #14 DeepThought, Aug 3, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
  15. Scribbler

    Scribbler Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, in order for the minelayer mind games to work the best you really do need multiple camo/minelayer troops, otherwise you're using the pre-deployed mine as a deterrent by placing it somewhere where the only way you can get LoS to the mine in to get inside the blast radius. Playing the minelayer mind games effectively is somewhat faction-specific; Ariadna is going to have very little trouble pulling it off, whereas ALEPH will have a higher opportunity cost to do so without sacrificing something else.