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Shotgun templates and F2F rolls

Discussion in 'Rules' started by SuperD, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. SuperD

    SuperD Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone help clarify how shotgun templates work for F2F rolls? It's always confused me a bit.

    For example, I have a bandit who shoots his shotgun at trooper A. The template also tags trooper B behind him.

    Both trooper A and B have LoS to the bandit and both elect to shoot back for F2F.

    The bandit rolls an 8 and a 12.

    Trooper A misses.

    Trooper B rolls a 10.

    What happens?
    - Trooper A takes 1 or 2 hits (he missed his F2F entirely)?
    - Trooper B takes one hit? (the 12, his 10 beats the 8). Or does he take 2 because the templates bounce off trooper A?

    What if trooper B rolled a 13?
    - Does the bandit then take a hit, Trooper A still take the two hits and Trooper B is unscathed?
     
  2. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Assuming Trooper B hits on that 13 you have it all correct and Trooper A would take 2 hits.

    The Impact Template user is an individual F2F against everyone under the template. Their to hit number is calculated off of the targeted unit only though.
     
  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    For added complexity, let's assume that Trooper A has Cover and Mimetism. The Bandit's 12 is now a Crit.

    Crits have two effects:
    1. Win the FTF
    2. Apply the Crit effect of the ammunition type

    Effect 1 applies to all FTFs (so both Trooper A and B lose the FTF versus the Crit, unless they also Crit) but effect 2 only applies vs the main target of the BS Attack (IE the one which determines the MODs and range), so in this case it'll be Trooper A who suffers a wound without the opportunity to make an ARM save.

    This answer is derived from the old forums and is discussed in this thread:
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/impact-template-issues.25259/

    @Arkhos94 can you add this to the unresolved issues thread. I'd suggest making it clear that it had previously been resolved and is played as I describe, but we've lost the governing reference. Something like:

    "A. <As Above>. This option has previously been resolved as correct by Palanka and is how it is usually understood to be how it's played.
    B. Only Trooper A suffers the effect of the Crit and Trooper B will consequently win the FTF."
     
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  4. SuperD

    SuperD Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the answers.

    It appears it's best to think of this scenario as if the bandit had a standard burst 4 weapon and split 2/2 between troopers A and B with the exception of the second effect of the crit.
     
  5. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't look at it that way as it could confuse your target numbers.

    It works more like throwing smoke against multiple AROs. You have one target number while they might have a variety of them. Your successes all hit, provided they win each individual F2F. The difference is with smoke you need to win all the F2Fs to get the template down, where here all hits land.

    For example you roll a 5 and 9. A succeeds their dodge on a 6. B crits their dodge. B is totally safe, but A still has to deal with the 9 as they lost that F2F.
     
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    For what it's worth, I believe your two quotes from the original thread is authentic, as far as my question and the answer.
    Solkan asked: "For template weapons, a critical attack roll applies to all of the face to face rolls it opposes, but only counts as a critical roll against the primary target for critical effects such as bypassing saves and automatic wounds. Everyone else under the template get their saves against the attack. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...her-troopers-and-the-effects-of-the-critical/"
    Palanka answered: "Yes."​


    The problem is with the rules text:
    Rolling a Critical in an Attack Roll with a Template Weapon causes the target of the attack (and only the target) to suffer Damage automatically and lose one point of Wounds/Structure, bypassing the ARM or BTS Roll, and applies what its Special Ammunition specifies in case of Critical.

    Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template.​

    So you've got
    [Here's what happens when you roll a crit]
    followed by
    Other troopers affected by the Template do not suffer the effects of the Critical, but they still suffer the regular effects of the Template.
    to compound the misguided way CB decided to their ammunition critical rules--having all of the rules where you can have a critical incorporate the critical effects for normal ammunition instead of making players deal with a cross reference. :(
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's a(nother) game terminology issue. Implicitly there are primary and secondary targets of impact template attacks. The problem is that the rules do not explicitly distinguish between the two for the purposes of the FTF roll (only for the damage effects).

    It gets even more fun if you add Symbiomates.

    Personally, I find the easiest way to parse it is:
    All targets are hit by a Critical attack.
    Only the primary target suffers the Critical damage effects of the ammunition used.
    Secondary targets suffer the regular damage effects of the ammunition used.
     
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  8. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Added with link to here, the previous discussion you linked and the google cache of the old forum
    I wrote the situation with a Tohaa as a target so the question of Symbiomate is also included
     
  9. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

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    @inane.imp , i am sure this one sentence
    make the roll effect against Not initial targets becomes not a critical but ordinary success, so in some cases such targets could win their own FtF with just better roll, not only with own criticals.
    for example if i use spec. fire, & my target number is low due penalties, if i score a critical - it effects initial target, but others could avoid hits with ordinary successful dodges if they beat my roll.
     
  10. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Correct
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Winning a Face to Face roll is not an effect of a Critical Hit, that's simply the way Face to Face rolls work. Critical Hit effects can be found in each ammunition type.
     
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  12. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    From a game design perspective too, being able to wipe out an entire Fireteam with a single lucky roll in ARO might be a bit much.
     
  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    There was an old forum discussion about this and the post marked "correct answer" said what @inane.imp said : secondary target are automatically it but not automatically wounded in case of a crit with an impact template.

    @solkan quoted it :

    This being said, this discussion si quite old (begining of N3) so everyone do not agree about it being relevant

    Only CB can no tell us wich way it should go, sadly they are not very fast to do so
     
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  14. Sunabe

    Sunabe Member

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    I have different question regarding this.

    This is the active turn of Trooper A.
    Trooper A shoots an enemy trooper who shoots back with a shotgun.
    I win the FtF roll(I had the higher succes therefore canceling his succes http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Face_to_Face_Rolls).
    Does he get to place his template to damage any trooper behind A?
    I thought not for
    "Impact Template Weapons

    Effects
    I won the FtF therefore his Attack Roll is not succesful.
     
  15. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    Templates are placed at declaration to determine which models are effected by it, then rolls are made. The rolls are FTF against all targets effected by the template placement using the target number from the original model targeted, but the result of that original FTF does not remove the template.
     
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  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    It depends :
    1 : You win and his roll is a fail (he rolls more than his BS +/- modifiers) => no template
    2 : You win and his roll is a pass (he rolls less than his BS +/- modifiers) => template is placed and other troops will have to roll some ARM (unless they shoot too, because coordinated order or ghost synchro, then its a face to face between your opponents pass roll and yours trooper BS attack)

    That's why template weapon are very great as a reactive weapon. Well placed, they can hit active troopers that won't be able to react or wipe out a whole FT.
     
    #16 Arkhos94, Feb 28, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    You also have to read the bullet points that come directly after that one:
    • The trooper who declared the Attack compares this Roll against each enemy trooper affected by the Template individually. Each enemy trooper affected by the template resolves his Face to Face Roll with the Template user independent of each other; the Face to Face Roll of one affected enemy trooper does not affect the Face to Face Rolls of the others (See the example below).
    • The attacker must designate a main target, from who all MODs applied to his Roll will be determined. As stated above, this Roll will be compared against each enemy trooper affected by the Template.
    My emphasis. See also the very first example, referred to in the bullets above: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Templ...plate_example._Main_target_reacts_by_shooting.