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Shikami niche

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Paperclip, Aug 30, 2021.

  1. Paperclip

    Paperclip Active Member

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    Under what circumstances would a shikami be the best pick or in short how to best use a shikami?

    So far for missions that requires retrieving items, aragoto or kuroshi are better choices with better movement and smoke for the latter option.

    Holding a room or a zone, karakuris and their 3W total immunity are better at tanking especially with the changes to shotgun templates in close quarters.

    Killing missions, any oniwaban or the other samurais can do it with better order efficiency.
     
  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Shikami's niche is a dust collector on your shelf.
     
  3. Delta57Dash

    Delta57Dash Well-Known Member

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    To expand on Triumph's Answer; the Shikami is in a really rough place right now.

    It's a fast, heavy armor specialist that can excel within 8" with an Assault Pistol, but it's expensive, hackable, only has FD+4", and you already have an entire army full of troops that are good at close range.

    Thus, it usually sits on the shelf while you bring something that diversifies your threats, like an Oniwaban.
     
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  4. Kai Wren

    Kai Wren Well-Known Member

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    In the ancient days of N3 they brought nimbus grenades which let you put down a negative burst template, so they had an interesting niche helping to put down a zone of fire so you could have an easier time dealing with reactive fireteams with your active turn shooters.

    6/2 movement, super jump and climbing plus on a 2 wound specialist with forward deployment and mimitism all sounds great on paper, but in practice they are just too expensive without bringing something unique to the party. If Nimbus is no longer going to be a thing, they would have been awesome with Eclipse grenades (or even regular smoke).
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If memory serves, the Contender profile was the one with Nimbus and it didn't have Flash Pulse. Unfortunately, Forward Deployment is crazy expensive on heavy infantry, which meant that CB could maintain the unit's price without adding too much utility to it. I do think that ultimately the unit got better, and I would contend that the primary use for Nimbus in JSA was always mostly relegated to the Shikami stacking active turn advantage. Mainly because most un-hackable units didn't receive price cuts going from N3 to N4.
    However, the primary issue facing the Shikami has changed and they now need to contend with a unit flora that's packed tight with direct template weapons (and zappers!) which means that the Assault Pistol isn't quite as useful as it was in N3. Creative use of Dodge is necessary!
     
  6. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I'm actually confident it costs the exact same on light infantry as well. FD+4 costs 3 points on Kniggits and if you cross reference the Kunai and Hundun you can see it costs 3 points there (because we know MSV1 costs 3 points thanks to profiles like Bolts).
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There's a bunch of profiles I haven't been able to track the cost of unless FD costs 1 points on (regardless if it's +4 or +8). Most profiles also seem to pay quite a high premium on MSV compared to their Mimetic counter-part, but Armand certainly pays no more than 2 for it (considering that I haven't seen any profile pay more than +1/+0,5 for Shock Minelayer). Hell, compare Xi to Kanren and Kanren's price will barely make sense if they get Holo and FD for free.

    Unfortunately, the pool of heavy infantry isn't quite as crowded for comparisons, but as far as I've been able to estimate the Hulang pays a lot more for forward deployment than skirmishers do - most likely as much as Zhencha's infiltration* - than does for example Dart for Forward Deployment**

    It's really complicated, but bottom line is that Shikami didn't change much going from N3 other than getting a small bit of Forward Deployment while other HI got a host of extra abilities (most of which won't be noticeable for the samurai since all samurai are so cheap to begin with - and the Tanko do-over)

    * Which seems to be on par with skirmishers' price for Infiltration + Camo-3, unlike Daofei that's a lot costlier 'cause of it
    ** seriously, Dart only makes sense if Forward Deployment + Camo-3 is at least 5 points cheaper than Infiltration + Camo-3
     
  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Long Ya show Minelayer coming in at 1pt (I suspect profiles that use minelayer to deploy perimeter weapons may not be getting charged for minelayer or possibly the cost of koalas was reduced to compensate). Mines cost 1pt as well, that puts Armand in for MSV1 at 3 points which tracks as far as I can tell.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We're straying off topic.
    Minelayer on profiles with Koalas etc seem baked in and, yeah, they seem to have increased the price on Shock Mines + Minelayer (except for on the Kanren).
    That said, MSV1 is really all over the place, but most profiles do seem to be paying 3 points. Nökken seem to pay 1 point for it while Caliban pays 5 points, though, so I wouldn't call this a reliable metric.

    There's also Krit to consider. E/Mitter on several profiles seem to be 2, then there's DepRep, E/Mine, Minelayer, and the Heavy Shoutfun that we've got a reference point for with the Karakuri. Add in some leeway for that E/Mines and Minelayer not necessarily being as expensive as the damage mines and Krit is paying between 0 and 1 points for Forward Deployment.
    Which I realise isn't a HI-premium, but it's also quite far from the 3+ points that you're claiming is universal.

    In eeeither caaase.
    I do think they used Forward Deployment as a device not to make the Shikami perform better, but to keep the costs in the high-40s.
     
  10. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    E/M Mines are 1pt as far as I can tell, they're interchangeable in cost with shock mines on Scouts and Zeros.


    My math clocks Krit in at paying 3 points for FD+8. I think some characters that got buffed in N4 may have a weird ass free discount on the skill, Yuriko got the same treatment for her FD+8 only costing 3 points as well.


    I mean that actually might be our fault, given Yu Jing bitched about the Shikami's DZ boundness being a major limiting factor on it being useful for the few months we actually got to use a Shikami. I could easily see CB slapping FD+4 on it as an attempted band aid fix.
     
    #10 Triumph, Aug 30, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2021
  11. Quickit

    Quickit Well-Known Member

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    If you want to play a serious game, leave it behind. If you want a crazy fun unit to experiment with, throw him on the table for a bit of a unique experience. The combination of 6-2 MOV, -6 mimetism, Dodge +2", PH14, and Super Jump and Climbing plus means this guy can go literally anywhere on the board in a hurry, and dodge a reasonable number of shots at him. Shooting anything with the Contender, active turn or otherwise, is a waste of time. Just dodge and climb, stick to walls, climb onto rooftops, etc. I've had some really fun (and funny) experiences with him over the years in relaxed games. Treat him like Spiderman with an assault pistol and a pair of katanas and you can't go wrong. Too bad they didn't give him an Adhesive Launcher. That would have been awesome.
     
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  12. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    I was among those who proposed back in the day to give the Shikami FD and 6-2 movement, bacause it took it too long to do anything useful (be it killing or taking objectives). I guess CB listened, but I didn't expect Nimbus to go away; it was a nice tool against Fireteams and gave the Shikami a little bit of extra utility.

    I haven't had the chance to test JSA yet in N4 (I've just played 3 times in N4, with Tohaa), so I don't know how well (or bad) it works, but when playing in N3 I liked to use the Shikami because it was a fun unit that could perform either very well or catastrophically bad. I had lot of fun with it successes and failures.

    By the way... how about pairing the Shikami with Yuriko? At least she can help the Shikami against Deployables (with the Deactivator), or in case the Shikami get Immobilized. Also, she provides a little bit of long range firepower with the Panzerfaust and some area control with the Mines during the Reactive Turn.
     
  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    A B1 BS12 Panzerfaust does not qualify as long range firepower, and Yuriko being put in a duo is a waste of her talents given she's far more valuable for JSA's HI in links.
     
  14. Davetron

    Davetron Member

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    I think he still works reasonably well as a late game attack piece/button pusher, or as a quadrant holder.
    But, yeah, losing nimbus and not replacing it with anything equivalent like smoke or nimbus hurts the profile. I would really like to see both profiles get grenades at the least as that would open up some really fun attack vectors.
     
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  15. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    The Shikami's BTS3 is a real problem for it. Its points cost means you need it to do the job it's been given and if you run into Aleph, CA, Nomads or any 6th sense hacker with repeater access it is unlikely to do so. I get it on a 17pt Tanko or 20pt Domaru, but on a 45pt Shikami, we need to see some kind of defence against oblivion et al.
     
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  16. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Shikami is strong in close quarters... unless the enemies carry a smartphone.
     
  17. Kiyomasa

    Kiyomasa Active Member

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    It is a shame because the Shikami was the model that got me into infinity. I love him and still use him anyway.
     
  18. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Like @Quickit says, the Shikami is -fun-. Really, really fun. But not resilient or cheap enough when you're pushing hard on competitiveness.

    Also if you like lots of big vertical terrain (skyscraper tables), he's great.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Verticality doesn't really like the Shikami's weapons, though. Maybe a way to solve the problem is that the Shikami should've had more mid-range guns like some form of marksman rifle and multi rifle
     
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  20. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    A marksman or multi rifle would have increased its utility slot. So would have Hidden Deployment + Forward Deployment 8" with it's current weapons. wHD+FD8 would have allowed for ARO duty on a different level for JSA, the Contender profile mostly but both profiles would have been able to sit in HD in the middle of a critical pathway waiting to dodge engage someone on PH 14 with a 4 inch Dodge Move, then add Surprise Attack... for that active turn.

    Imagine them standing on a roof near an objective 4" away. In the enemy's turn, a Shikami intercepts them before reach the objective with their next order. This would allow for Shikami to really play up the role of being HI Ninjas. Which would make them better at objective based missions without making too easy for Shikami to get into someone's backfield.

    I know we've all talked about Shikami a lot but I would gladly settle for the combi rifle to be turned into a Multi Rifle. And for them to get HD+FD8. They are ninja afterall. I'd even settle for a 1-2 point tax after it's TRUE value had been play tested.
     
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