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Semi annual TAG thread

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by karush, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Citation please.
    Citation please. I have multiple citations stating the reptile series is cheap and easy to maintain across multiple factions, multiple variants, etc. If they are expensive please cite where.
     
  2. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
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    As you've said, TAGs from Reptile series are cheap, easy to maintain, etc. But it only applies to original Reptile TAGs, and might not necessarily applies to 'Nomads version of Reptile TAGs'. Here's why.

    Praxis scientists optimized what had been deficiencies in the original design of Gecko and gave it Zero-G and EVA capabilities.(N3 Corebook)

    Iguana Squadron has been fitted with a unique, Bakunin-conceived optimazation package. The Iguana is one of the few TAG models with a pilot ejection system, an experimental technology designed in Praxis to give obsolete gear-like the Iguana's original series-a second wind.(N3 Corebook)

    Gator was also an obsolete lineup from Reptile series, but Anaika Dandekar from Supremechanics, replaced its neural connection wetware with one developed in collaboration with the Black Lab, and it's multi component armor is also from the Yujing corporation Gang Tie.(Raveneye)

    Regarding Lizard and Szalamandra, I can't find plenty of backgrounds about them so I won't say it's obvious, but I bet they would not be that different.

    So anyhow, the text continuously mentions that Nomad Nation has purchased the already existing Reptile TAGs because they are cheap and easy to maintain, but also upgraded and redesigned so that they could fit their taste. Which implies, contemporary Reptile TAGs which Nomads use could require more resources and maintaining because they've got upgraded.
    And FYI, Nomad Nation has quite limited mass-production capabilities(also from Raveneye) which could make it even more tiresome for them to purchase, upgrade, and maintain the TAGs.

    Accordingly, our TAGs should be handled with much more care, since Nomads Nation has relatively poor mass-production & housing capabilities compared to other huge nations such as Pano of Yujing. This is about quantity, not quality.

    ...and still, I don't see any original reason that our TAGs should get Courage in particular. After all, I'm curious what you think Courage is.
     
    #22 Ugin, Aug 11, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Brain-washed Kuang Shi have courage. Super elite with the best training possible and the best equipment possible Hac Tao are not.
    Conscripted untrained Mutta'wiah have courage. Most of the rest of the faction are religious to the point of self-harm, but Az'Rail in the heaviest armour that's barely capable of moving once they've assumed firing position will still hit the dirt.
    Shasvasti's elite forces are about equally likely to be courageous as they are not while Taigha creatures are not
    Nyoka assault corps are courageous while Jayth assault group are not
    Bluecoats in their light armour are courageous while Omegas in their heavy armour with optical displacement emitters are not.

    Courage isn't a sign of veterancy nor competency nor professionalism. No combat unit in this game loses combat effectiveness for acting on instincts for 0,78 seconds of the battle - they duck down and then they're ready to fight again. Units are almost as likely to be courageous due to serious brain damage or due to a complete disregard for their own safety (or in the case of Keisotsu, for being shot by their non-courageous internal police if they show sign of weakness) as it is assigned seemingly completely arbitrarily. The only TAGs that have courage are TAGs that are martial artists, are religious nut cases, or are fully machines. That basically leaves Chernobog, the Nomad TAGs, Gorgos, the civilian Triphammers and the Anaconda. Chernobog is TAK/Cosmoflot so not having Courage would be weird so that leaves the Anaconda as the only TAG where the presence or absence of courage is even remotely arbitrary.

    This isn't a bug (there's probably way too many courageous units in game as is)
    And on a personal note, Religious is more likely to screw me over than aid me.
     
  4. burlesford

    burlesford Well-Known Member

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    Yours might be a very valid and well thought-out opinion. But even if you write 2000 words the next time, it's still an opinion, not a bug.
     
  5. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Thank you for calling my argument valid and well thought out. I am a bit confused as to why you keep saying it is an opinion as thiugh that lessens it. "Fire teams are too strong" was an opinion, and we got a fireteam update. "Nested rules is not helping the game" so they un-nested the rules in N4. "Infinity has a steep learning curve" was an opinion, and now we have code one.

    When an opinion is valid, well thought out, and supported by multiple points of evidence then it is very much worth considering.

    I say it is a Bug, you say it is not... well that is opinion I guess.
     
  6. karush

    karush Active Member

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    You're right, courage is not a sign of veterency or proffesionalism. If fact from the wiki the fluff statement is "This trooper is unafraid of death and ready to lay down his life in the execution of his duty.". The point is a street tough can be more courageous than the pope's bodyguard, it is all a frame of mind and willingness to take the hits.

    So let's revisit the Gecko and Iguana. Page 132 notes the gecko is "In their new habitat, their compact size and weaponry make them the alpha males, the toughest predators in the corregidor pack" and "They posited that Geckos should not be used like a normal T.A.G., but as a super heavy infantry unit, able to withstand damage and wipe out the opposition". These are are the spear head and according to their own doctrine used like super heavy infantry. In the nomads, both S5 HI have courage, so that seems to be part of the tactical doctrine/training. Furthermore, on Corregidor all heavy infantry have courage, so it sounds like corregidor favors training their HI to be courageous. So their tactical role sounds like they should have courage, based on other units in that same role in the faction they should have courage, and based on courage being universal on corregidor HI they sound like they should have courage. So what is the argument here, Corregidor doesn't train their TAG pilots to take a hit but the evaders get that training? the EVA team of Hellcats, Evaders, and Geckos, they stick the cowards in the geckos like this is the first episode of evangelion? (Get in the mech Carlos!). that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

    The iguana likewise is noted in it's profile "the Iguana squad emphasizes the physical and mental training of their pilots. The Nomad Military Force is assured that Iguana’s combat success has always been based on its aggressive spirit and its pilot’s technical skills. Used to facing technologically superior adversaries, their training and tenacity are responsible for levelling the playing field." That is three sentences noting 1) their mental training, 2) aggressive nature, and most importantly 3) their tenacity and again their training. Fleeing from a pistol round is hardly tenacious nor speaks to good training, especially when you have an ejection seat that improves your chances of survival (or at least you did till N4... I miss that rule). It sounds like it should have courage. The quote is available at Human sphere here https://human-sphere.com/index.php?title=Iguana

    As for TAGs having courage or religious only if they are "are martial artists, are religious nut cases, or are fully machines", has a couple of holes in it. 1) though courage was nested in martial arts in N3 that is now no longer the case and several models did lose courage while keeping martial arts and some new models have martial arts without courage (i.e. cheer killers). So the presence of martial arts and the choice to keep courage is a definite decision on the part of CB. So no, being a martial artist does not prevent me from counting the Guijia (which had neither courage or martial arts in N3), O-yori, and the blue wolf (which doesn't have MA). 2) "Chernobog is TAK/Cosmoflot so not having Courage would be weird" Well, the Chernobog isn't in TAK... so that is factually inaccurate, but that is not really your point. You're talking how much courage is present, so in kosmofloat there are 13 units (12 if we don't count the 112s twice) that are not remotes and are not characters or TAGs, in Corregidor there are 9 which does not seem that large a difference. As I have noted previously Corregidor has multiple courageous MI, all of their HI have courage, all of their skirmishers have courage, and their only non-character warband has courage. As for kosmo, courage is not a universal rule, see the caterans, para-commandos, zenit, STRANNIK outer patrol, and others. This is not like morats and religious, you have combat troops without courage (so does TAK btw). 3) The magarhiba never had religious and was the N3 rulebook example of what to do if you fail a guts check in the N3 core book, but it now has courage. So you have a model that was not religious and was the literal example of a TAG without courage, now has courage.

    Even if you were correct, The presence of courage on the Anaconda should not be ignored as it is arguably the most "nomad" unit in the game. In it's fluff it has corregidor pilots (it was part of the CJC), still receives Bakkunin upgraded reptiles series Anacondas (which also have been tinkered with by the black hand, the TAG RPG book), is funded by a "minor" tunguskan firm, and in multiple editions they have noted the implausibility of a merc TAG company unless it had a helping hand, "A hand that might very well be clad in black...". So A model with ties to all three ships and the secret power in the nomads has courage, sounds great but we need to remember that it was not beta tested with the nomads, it appears in no nomad force. So the most "nomad" TAG is the only one not in a nomad force, but is also the only one with courage, bit strange isn't it? Almost like it having courage has a great deal to do with it not being a nomad TAG in play testing.

    Any rate, have a good evening.
     
  7. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Yeah, Corregidor wild cards have some amazing options!
     
  8. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Alright, the maintenance quotes for the Gecko and the Iguana are specifically referring to maintenance in a combat theater, i.e. "easy to repair on campaign" for the iguana and "the simplicity of their design, which would make maintenance repair efforts less demanding in the field" for the gecko. Thus we can conclude that the maintenance concerns are specifically talking about the final post upgrade versions, as you don't worry about battlefield repairs for models you don't plan to put into extended battlefield conditions. Additionally if your gear can be easily repaired/maintained such as the reptile series has been noted several times and particular units of it specifically, then it quickly becomes more important to complete the mission and worry about the repairs later. Also I must note, for the gecko that statement immediately follows the statement noting their "dirt cheap" price, implying heavily that the low price is specifically talking about fielding the final version of the gecko.

    Yes, there are multiple references to upgrading the TAGs, but those are often paired with noting the cheap nature of the TAG (Reptile in general, Gecko Specifically), ease of maintenance which would include cost of repairs (Reptile in general, gecko, iguana), and cutting some corners in the gator's case for the advanced tech (violating several patents, and thus not paying the cost of using or developing them, a detail you did not mention). I see little talk about how expensive these upgrades are, just many mentions about how the nomads are able to reduce cost overall, buy cheap, and even when they do incorporate advanced tech it is in house or (allegedly) stolen. In short, these are examples that may increase cost, but considering other factions do not talk about the cost (except Pan-O which seems to take pride in the expense) it would be unlikely these upgrades take the Reptile series to the same cost as other faction TAGs, and there is a great deal of language providing direct and counter evidence suggesting the Reptiles even with upgrades are cheap by comparison. If nothing else, the economy of detail would suggest that if authors are constantly noting how cheap the nomad TAGs are without noting the expense of upgrading them then they are almost certainly on the cheaper side at the end of the process.

    But we do have a source for the cost of TAGs, the RPG. Both Pan-O and nomads suggest comparing Nomad TAGs to YuJing ones (pages 32 and 118), so let's do some math. Below are the prices for the three Nomad TAGs present in the TAG RPG book, the Anaconda, and the Guijai. I have removed the tariff cost as it does not apply to characters of that nation or to their military.

    Gecko 13
    Iguana 14
    Lizard 12
    Anaconda 12
    Guijai 16

    Surprisingly the Gecko and the Iguana are the two most expensive Nomad TAGs present, whether this is due to the upgrades you noted or to another factor I do not know. However they are both significantly cheaper than the Guijai, and the lizard is even cheaper still. Here the lizard is 75% of the cost of the Guijai it's contemporary and fellow main line battle TAG. I should note that the costs are in a theoretical currency that does not translate one to one with a currency in the infinity setting (you are not buying a TAG for 12 Oceanas, no fiat currency is that strong), however the scale is significant with even a gap of even two units representing a significant change in a character's cash flow and wealth.
    With that out of the way, I'll answer your question. What is Courage? from the wiki courage is "This trooper is unafraid of death and ready to lay down his life in the execution of his duty." It is a willingness to take a hit so your comrade doesn't. It is a willingness to lay down your life. Nomads have courage. Corregidor no Olvida, an entire ship chose to die to prevent Raven's Eye from harming Corregidor. They were not soldiers. Civilians, workers, and a precious few staff and crew knew their duty and saved corregidor at the cost of themselves. The nomads have courage.

    As for why Nomad TAGs should have courage? I had stated at least one reason for it, but I can go into greater depth. This is going to be a long answer so please bear with me. First is fluff, which we have spent a multitude of words on already, but in short multiple TAG entries note the tenacity, training, loyalty, and aggressive nature of Nomad TAGs. Additionally there is the consideration that courage in particular is common among Nomad heavy infantry and super heavy infantry, so it is not a stretch to consider that if all of Corregidor's HI and both S5 HI are taught to take a hit, then maybe the people in giant robots are also taught to stand their ground, especially if they are tactically treated as super heavy infantry (Gecko), have multiple mentions or their mental training and tenacity (iguana), or grown up in the worst of corregidor's modules (gator). Second, because there was a concerted effort by CB to give TAGs courage and religious in the transition from N3 to N4. The most obvious example is the Magarhiba Guard, which was used as an example of what happens when you fail a guts check in the N3 rulebook but in N4 that example is moot because it now has courage. There are other examples such as the Guijai of yujing which lacked courage and lacked martial arts (I mention the martial arts in particular because others have argued it had courage due to martial arts in N3, forgetting that both rules were added to the guijai in the transition to N4). I believe this oversight is due to Nomads being finished first/early in the design process for N4, it has been stated publicly that nomads are the baseline faction and we have the first model of infinity (the Aguacil). I believe the nomads were finished first or at least very early in a parallel development process, then used as a baseline to then develop ideas for the other factions/unit types, and then due to shortage of time/man power/energy drinks (likely worsened by covid) the nomads were never revisited to bring the baseline into accordance with the other factions and changes in design concepts used for them. Comparing the Anaconda and the Iguana shows more than enough to see significant changes in game design for TAGs (HMG TAGs also get an AP Spitfire option (except the iguana), Courage for TAGs (except for nomads, regardless of what the fluff suggests), Operators being specialists (in N3 the anaconda much like iguana had an operator not a "pilot" and was not a specialist). Finally, I don't believe a giant mechanized battle armor should flee from being shot by a lucky pistol hit, one that may not even be able to harm the TAG. I have a different thread where I work through how nomad TAGs resemble N3 TAGs more than N4 TAGs if you wish to read a longer explanation.

    I hope that has satisfactorily answered your questions.
     
  9. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Oh for the benefit of anyone who made it this far, I did find one more data point and wish to correct myself on another point I made earlier.

    First on the new data point, the Gator fluff includes this line

    "Even though they have the Black Labs and top researchers such as the ArTecnodivarius group, since they are a wandering, space faring nation, their mass production capabilities are limited. For this reason, to provide its armed forces with military TAGs the nomad nation has always resorted to acquiring older series almost at the end of their service life,which are also quick to procure, well tested, easy to maintain, and very inexpensive."

    This quote provides evidence for both sides, if the nomads did produce their own TAGs from scratch it would be difficult to replace loses. However since they go with upgrading older TAGs their forces instead have cheap, easily maintained TAGs, that are easy to procure. Call it bias, but again economy of detail favors the idea that these TAGs are easily replaced and repaired, otherwise why mention it constantly when talking about Nomad TAGs (i.e. in general about the reptile series in both pan-o and nomads sections, iguana, gecko, gator all specifically).

    Now for my correction, in my first post I had said that Corregidor had courageous LI, this is untrue depending on how you count it. The only LI with courage is Lupe, a character. I don't like counting characters in in these tallies as they would reasonably be considered exceptional. i.e. lupe is an alguacil and has courage but not all alguacils have courage. My mistake came in thinking the Tomcats have courage, but that was a false positive, it is their helper bot that have courage, not them. This does hurt one initial point i made, but the fact that corregidor has multiple MI with courage, all of their HI have courage, their non-character warband has it, and both of their skirmishers have it but none of their TAGs does still bear consideration, especially as the Gecko is tactically used like a super heavy HI and not a TAG.

    Any rate, thank you for listening.

    See you all at the next post.
     
  10. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Please don't.
     
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I just want to point out that a lot of background is full on propaganda. Every faction says they are the best.
     
  12. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    There's also a finite amount of spares and useable shells. You can't afford to burn through stacks of tags if the useable shells left in the boneyard are degraded/damaged/beyond repair.
     
  13. Time Bandit

    Time Bandit Vulnerability (Total)

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    I think you should pause for a moment when your peers tell you that you're misusing a bug-reporting feature to try and advocate for a personal change to the game's rules. (It is indeed bad form, tho not a hanging offence!) You are of course welcome to profess and argue your point as much as you want (and you do), but that's a qualitatively different matter from posting a wish list item as flaws in the game's software, right? What on earth would happen if every player started acting in the same way?

    Quite aside from fluffwars, I for one am happy to see Nomad tags, which are on the whole bleeding-edge efficiently equipped and pointed, have a defining drawback. Hey, at least you didn't get religious troop instead, that's wayyy worse on a valuable unit. CB is imo to be congratulated on some exellent design decisions with the Szally, Gecko & Gator, even if they are a little overtuned, because they have some lovely thematic rule combinations. Yum.
     
  14. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Very true, which is one reason I also pointed out that Pan-O section also notes the virtues of the reptile series, page 28 if you are curious. Granted, it may be a humble brag (i.e. "even our cast offs are super amazing!") but it is notable that in the core book the cheapness, ease of maintenance, and quality of the reptile series is noted in general twice and specifically again for the Gecko's unit entry. If we assume economy of detail (The idea that you have only X pages/words/minutes to present your media, so only present what is important) then it is curious that the reptile's virtues are presented three times in a single book, across two factions no less. Makes me think that in universe there is more than a kernel of truth to it.

    Thank you for the for making a fair counterpoint.
     
  15. karush

    karush Active Member

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    A fair point, though the reptile series is noted for being easy to maintain in general across two factions in the core book, two of the series (the gecko and iguana) are noted specifically to be easy to maintain and repair in the field (also in the RPG they have rules specifically making them easier to repair), and from page 114 of Raven's Eye "The Nomad nation has always resorted to acquiring older series almost at the end of their service life, which are also quick to procure, well tested, easy to maintain, and very inexpensive" thus stating the nomads specifically choose Tags they can easily acquire and maintain.

    In short if nomad Tags were hard to procure you would be correct. However CB has gone out of it's way 4 times in current N4 books, at least twice in the RPG, and more times beyond that in N3 books to make a point of how easy the reptile series is to procure, maintain, and if all else fails replace.

    p.s. Sorry for not granting a number of instance for the N3 books, however some of them are repeats (gecko in particular comes to mind) so I was unsure how to count those instances. Assuming we only allow for the iguana to count as it does not have updated N4 fluff, then my count comes to 7 instances of noting cheap/easy to repair/procure nature of the reptile series. 3 times in the core, once more in ravenseye, one instance for the N3 Iguana, and twice more in the RPG.

    Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.
     
  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Refurbished hand-me-downs or not, Nomads should not be second to PanO and equal to CA in number of TAGs. While Yu Jing is at 3, Haqq at 3, Aleph now 3, O-12 with 2 (these are counting Triphammers). Nomads are three cities in space that are only together once in a while while the others have the economies of worlds! If that's not some favoritism I don't know what is. This goes for both story and just the darn game ignoring all story! There's people, not me, who don't give an F about the background. Sure they don't produce the figures anymore for the Lizard but with proxy rules that doesn't matter! I'm just saying they could have just made the Iguana better or the Lizard and the still would have outnumbered most.

    Edit: One thing to add too is that Corregidor is one of only three sectorals that has 3 TAGs, along with Onxy and Druze. All others have 1 or 2.
     
    #36 Space Ranger, Aug 30, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  17. karush

    karush Active Member

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    Glad to see someone else pointing that out. In previous threads I had people yelling "Nomads aren't a TAG faction that is why ours are bad, it's fluffy and purposeful!" And my response was basically "okay, so why do they keep giving us TAGs? We have double or triple what most factions have." I asked for economic or game design reasons for the discrepancy and basically got none.
     
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  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Game design is easy, they wanted to make Nomad TAGs different, same reason PanO have a complete lack of smoke, Ariadna don't have 2W HI without Transmutation, Tohaa don't get REMs, O-12 don't get non-TO camo, etc, etc. It's a limitation of the faction countered by the fact they're backed up by the best hackers, repeater net, and engineers in the game.

    Fluff is mutable, it can be massaged and altered to fit whatever narrative you like. Established facts are that the Nomads don't produce TAGs and upgrade obsolescent models bought, scavenged, purloined, and pilfered from elsewhere. People have suggested lots of prefectly cromulent reasons from Nomad training of TAG pilots not being as effective due to lack of space to train, knowledge that their TAGs are a more valuable resource compared to other factions making them less likely to simply let them to absorb incoming fire, that the upgrades are generally the product of absolute basket cases from the Black Labs and do you really trust the work of those nutty boffins with your life?

    You have to like it, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. I don't like that PanO don't get smoke, or the JSA's only HMGs are a TAG, a BS10 line spod, and a totes remote, but they're arguably much more of a downside that TAGs having to make a Guts check that they still pass 65% of the time.

    As a counter argument, Nomads having more variety makes sense. They're constantly scavenging, buying, and upgrading second hand chassis rather than manufacturing standardised equipment, and keeping what they have in service using upgrades, they just have fewer of each individual model.

    Compare it to tanks in a modern army. US tank regiments are almost uniformly equipped with Abrams, UK regiments all have Challenger 2s, but the Ukrainian army has a hodge podge of old soviet kit, more modern domestic or Russian models, donated chassis from Poland, Spain, and other countries. The Ukrainian army still have fewer tanks than the US, but they have a much larger variety.
     
    #38 colbrook, Sep 23, 2022 at 11:21 PM
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022 at 11:46 PM
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  19. karush

    karush Active Member

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    I think you might have missed the point I was making. People were arguing in another thread we are not a TAG faction, assuming that is true then why do nomads have over double what most factions have. It'd be like saying ariadna is not a hacking faction but then gave them 6 different hackers, except a bit more extreme because the cost of designing, shipping, and most certainly producing a TAG is greater than it is for other models. Bit of a conundrum if you view nomads as "not a TAG" faction; which I certainly disagree with. I think nomads are a TAG faction, this thread and previous threads prove where I stand.
     
  20. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Yep, I'd agree that Nomads are a TAG faction, but in a different way to PanO or CA, Nomad TAGs tend to be less good with better support.
     
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