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Seed Soldiers and Limited Camouflage

Discussion in 'Rules' started by bakuninunbound, Dec 2, 2019.

  1. bakuninunbound

    bakuninunbound Well-Known Member
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    I asked this on the WGC page and have two people currently in disagreement about the answer.

    Question: If a seed soldier uses autohatch (no roll made), does it lose the camouflaged state? Seed Soldiers seed embryos have the Limited Camouflage rule, but the Seed Soldier developed form does not.

    Answer 1: The developed form loses the state as soon as the Embryo hatches because the developed form doesn't have the rule.

    Answer 2: The developed form doesn't need the rule to remain in the state, it only needs the rule to re-enter the camouflaged state (which it couldn't any way because it is limited camouflage). So as long as the developed form didn't hatch by dodging, it keeps it's camouflage marker state.
     
  2. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Answer 2 looks to be correct given some of the rulings/consensus about marker states here on the forums (i.e. that using the skill is not necessary for being in a state, just entering it, see the discussions on HoloStates or Downgrading TO to standard Camo).
    Note that the ARO Hatch skill is not a SMS and would drop the Camo state though
     
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  3. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    The Camo state and any skills allowing the use of that state are separate. Answer 2 would be my answer.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Cancellation for Seed-Embryo states you replace the Marker with the Model when the state cancels, I don't see how a Camouflage Marker qualifies as the Model... Answer 1 is correct unless a FAQ is issued, IMO
     
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  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    They cannot adapt the language of every places that would mention a model with "a model or the appropriate marker based on the state that you are currently in".

    Camouflaged is a state that replaces the model with a marker. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged
    "While Camouflaged, troopers are not represented by a model on the table but by a Camouflage Marker (CAMO)."

    Seed-Embryo State would require us to put a Seed-Embryo marker, but we're already replacing this with a camo marker, but we're putting a camo marker instead. Why would that not be the case for this scenario? http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Seed-Embryo
    "The user of this Special Skill must deploy in the Seed-Embryo (State) game state, applying the Seed-Embryo Troop Profile."

    The "replace with a marker" is referencing the Seed-Embryo marker, which we're not even using in the situation where we are using a Camouflaged Marker. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Seed-Embryo_(State)
    "Whenever the Seed-Embryo state is cancelled, replace the Seed-Embryo Marker with the trooper's model, facing whatever direction the owning player chooses."
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They use "Trooper" for that, even when not appropriate.
     
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  7. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Pages I looked at to come to my conclusion:

    • Camo skill
    • Camo state
    • Seed-Embryo skill

    Page I missed that actually gives the right answer:

    • Seed-Embryo state

    I really hope this is cleaned up immensely in N4.
     
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  8. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    They couldn't use trooper. You can't say "Replace the Seed-Embryo Marker with a trooper". That makes no sense.

    They ask you to replace the Seed-Embryo Marker with a model when you cancel the Seed-Embryo State. Just like they ask you to replace the Camo Marker with a model when you cancel the Camo State.

    But you can't replace the Seed-Embryo Marker with a Model, because you're actually in Camo state aswell.

    -----

    If we follow your reasoning...

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged

    You discover my Camo-Seed-Embryo trooper...

    My Camo is cancelled...

    "A trooper's Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: [...] The Camouflaged trooper is successfully Discovered."

    So I replace my Seed-Embryo with a model when I am discovered? Basically granting me a free hatch?
     
  9. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    So I am now a model, that is still in camouflaged state? Because none of the camouflaged cancellation clause were ever met?

    I think this sentence int he camouflaged state contests that reasoning.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged
    While Camouflaged, troopers are not represented by a model on the table but by a Camouflage Marker (CAMO).

    It is a replacement effect on being represented by a model.

    As long as the state is active, you can treat being represented by a model, by being represented by a Camouflage Marker.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There's a specific definition of what constitutes the difference between a trooper and a model/miniature. If it had said "replace the Marker with the Trooper" then maybe the interpretation that you get to keep Limited Camo holds water, but that's still a stretch.

    The definition for a "Model" is literally "Game element with a Troop Profile represented on the table by a miniature." which fully precludes having it represented by a Camouflage Marker. Models can not be in Marker state, full stop. (Edit: unless it's Holoecho, which has a bit of a weirdness where the actual model might be a marker)

    I'm not going to dispute that the Camouflage Marker might remain on the table because it is not properly cancelled, but that's going to be problematic.
     
  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    And what do you make of the following sentence?
    "Whenever the Seed-Embryo state is cancelled, replace the Seed-Embryo Marker with the trooper's model, facing whatever direction the owning player chooses."

    We're not replacing a Seed-Embryo Marker. So it should not apply.

    The entire rule seems like a failure in future-proofing the Seed-Embryo Seed with a patched paragraph about camouflaged that doesn't encapsulate all the possibilities. Big canditate for a FAQ.
     
  13. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    God I hate the way the rules present like that. I get that the wiki is limited, but there has to be a better way to show interconnected skills and such.
     
  14. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Okay, this was bothering me a lot.

    I decided to take a loot at the spanish wiki (should've done that sooner).

    In the Seed-Embryo State of the spanish wiki, we have the following text...

    "El estado Semilla-Embrión (sea camuflada o no) se cancela, sustituyendo el Marcador por la figura, en los siguientes casos:"

    Which translate to...

    "The Seed-Embryo state (whether camouflaged or not) is canceled, replacing the Marker with the figure, in the following cases:"

    This makes the ruling, both RAW and Intention 100% clear. (The english wiki not mentioning camo and stating that it only replaces the Seed-Embro Marker, which our trooper isn't represented by, made this very unclear)

    It would be nice if this could be reflected in the english wiki @ijw :)
     
  15. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Nice catch.
     
  16. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    Could you expand on that, please? My English fails me in this case, do we:
    - replace the Marker with the model regardless of the Camo state (it is autocancelled along with Seed-Embryo state);
    - only Seed-Embryo state is canceled and we have a camo'ed SeedSoldier;
    - or we cancel Seed-Embryo state, replace the Marker with the model and have a model of SeedSoldier that is technically in Camo state on the table?
     
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    This one
     
  18. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Great, more ridiculous RAW arguments for things that are clearly not the intention.

    RAW dogfighting to favor impractical rules for personal advantage (or just for the sake of argument) is the death of fun in this game.
     
  19. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I’m not sure which side of the argument would be personal advantage.

    It was a really civilized discussion about trying to figure out what the intent of the rule was, which was extremely unclear with only the english ruling. The rule could’ve swung either way, and I try to find the most accurate ruling so that if I have to make a TO call in a tournament, I have less chance of making the wrong decision.

    I highly doubt that discussing rules accuracy on the rules subsection of the forum is leading to the death of the fun in the game.
     
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  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    You know @Diphoration , you're right. This is in fact the right place for this. And I'm glad you guys work stuff out here, where it is containerized a bit.

    Please pardon my inappropriately placed criticism. I was out of line and don't mean to shut down constructive (and as you point out quite civil) debate here.

    Outside the Rules forum, in the general community (and especially during play at events), RAW arguments tend to be used the way I described. Unfortunately they are usually "gotchas" sprung by TFG during play to use a tricky and/or counterintuitive rules-effect to their advantage. I've had plenty of them sprung on me during tourneys, and it's left me a bit bitter (and pretty amused when TOs slap people trying them down, which is about 50/50 in my experience).

    That's why I react negatively to them (and why I went after this one, because it's also happening in the WGC Facebook group, which is not a great place for rules discussion). But you're right, this is the place where they -should- be discussed and worked out.