Seed-Embryo rules state; But if the model uses the "Developed Shape" profile for the whole order in which it declares any skill, then it can never make use of Surprise Attack? And can only make use of the Chest Mines in ARO? Is this the intent of the rule now?
In your active you can declare BS Attack (Chest Mines) + Idle / Discover (in either order). That wouldn't trigger a change, as Idle and Discover are Short Movement Skills without the Movement label.
Ok, but it would preclude a Seed Soldier from being able to use Surprise Attack on it's Panzerfaust...
@ijw, @HellLois, is there an official answer on this? Can Seed Soldiers (and Cadmus, btw) use their Developed Shape weapons with Suprise Shot, or only Chest Mines on the Seed-Embryos? What is the intended rules interaction here?
It's possible that this is an oversight, but neither Seed Soldiers nor Cadmus have Surprise Attack on their Developed Profiles in the master spreadsheet. So this is NOT a bug in Army. As written, they can only use Surprise Shot in Seed form.
As noted in another thread, either troopers with seed embryo aren’t displayed properly, or the seed embryo rules need to explain which of the two profiles the weapons and equipment belong to. Both Seed Embryo and Motorcycle have two troop profiles, and are displayed in Army the same way.
That's a good point. If we are going off of how it's presented in Army, either the seed-embryos have panzerfausts, or the Fraacta sprouts weapons when it takes that first wound... Which... honestly? I would use the heck out of a mim (-3) surprise attacker with FD 8"
Transmutation is slightly differently worded, but I agree that there could stand to be a bit more explanation of how multi-profile skills are to be used.
Is the Seed-Embryo a Model or a Marker? It's described as a "Token", but Tokens are equipment or weapons and those two categories are notorious for not being Troopers.
That token may as well be a cardboard and/or plastic model. :) Because it’s representing the trooper in “seed embryo” form.
Not quite what I was asking. Token is a specific type of game entity, as seen below, whether it's a piece of equipment, Marker or Miniature matters to order declarations and targeting. ◼ Token. Game element that represents a piece of Deployable Equipment or a Deployable Weapon.
Yeah, that's interesting. Tokens also represent game states, which tracks with how seed-embryo was done in N3. The kooky thing is it tells us to replace the camo marker with a token if discovered, which is likely to prevent a discovered seed soldier from being able to declare a surprise attack (...with its chest mine...) since it wouldn't then meet one of the requirements of Surprise Attack - starting as a marker. I think this should read that the camo marker should be replaced with the Model, placing a seed-embryo token next to it. Yes, that would be a big help. The biggest difference is that seed starts with the token, when when it goes away you use the second profile. Transmutation is the reverse, you use the first profile until a token goes down. Fraactas change profiles but keep their equipment; I don't see anything different there for seeds...
Let me be more blunt: Although the text uses the word "token", the trooper in that state is not a token. The plausible fact is that they're not planning on producing or requiring anyone to buy a Seed Embryo model. In the various starter boxes, CB has provided a marker to be used in scenarios when the player didn't have the bonus figure that came in the box. This appears to be the same situation. The token isn't a token.
If you're blunt about what it is not, could you also be blunt about what it is so we know if it can be targeted by hacking or other things that may require it to be a Trooper?
@ijw - can we get some clarification on "Token" vs "Marker" in relation to this thread and this one - https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/seed-embryo-shared-loadout-query.38164/ Because Marker states provide Private Info and prevent targetting with hacking, Tokens do not... So there's a pretty huge gulf in what each would bring to Shas. Further, if Seed is a Token state, not a Marker state, then Cadmus has no way of utilising Surprise Attack on it's seed profile because it never has a Marker State
I do believe Decoy is a marker state. However, whether that lets it Surprise Attack with anything but chest mines is TBD...
EDIT - My bad, so Decoy counts for marker state across decoys and "real mini" in the same way HoloProj does... Feeling like "Marker State" should've been a tag on relevant rules - the way comms attack, optional, obligatory, etc are
You may target a seed-embryo following the same rules as a normal trooper profile, so long as it is not camouflaged.
Disagree (partially). Being a "token" does make it impossible for hackers to target (RAW): Seed "Tokens" are specifically not a model: Hacking requires the unit be in "Model form" - which a token per the above is clearly not This language about going from Marker to Model tracks with how cancellation of the camouflage state is worded. So, I guess the Cadmus Hacker in seed state 1) can use its hacking device and 2) can't be hacked back ;)
