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Seed Embryo Problems - Consolidated into 1 Thread

Discussion in 'Rules' started by paraelix, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Problems with Seed-Embryo rule;
    • Nothing in the rule states that the Seed doesn't possess the same equipment as the chosen loadout, and profile is structured the same as other units that definitely do (motorcycles, transmutation models)
    • Seed Embryo itself is described as a "Token" rather than a "Marker"
    • Follow on from above two - If seed retains equip of loadout *and* is considered a Marker State, then the KHD Cadmus is a Hacker that can't be targetted by Hacking. If it is not a Marker, it is a hacker with Wip0 that cannot defend itself.
    • Does a Seed Embryo have a facing?
    • Surprise attack only functions on Chest Mine in Active Turn (via idle/shoot declaration) making *very* difficult/niche to ever make use of - unless Seed Embryo itself is then considered a Marker State (but this doesn't really improve it's function)
    • No explanation for how to handle Guts!
    • No explanation for how the "voluntary hatch" is used or if it is available in the player's third active turn (and why is this portion of the rule outside of the rule box and in the intro description?)
    • Going unconscious is not a cancellation criteria for the seed profile/token, so does a seed that was rendered unconscious heal back into a seed or into the Developed shape?
    • If a Seed Soldier/Cadmus declares it's first short skill as move + prone, is it considered to be "in LoF" at the start of the order if it would have been as a standing S2 instead of the S0 seed embryo?
    • Is it possible to declare Suppressive Fire as a full order skill on a Seed Soldier that has not become it's developed shape? And by extension, can they be put into Suppression via a CP expenditure at the start of the game? (I'm assuming here that I'm reading that the cancellation clause is declaring any short move skill or declaring a whole order skill - not a whole order movement skill - probably something else to be clarified)
    • The seed profile (for Seed Soldiers and Cadmus) shows Silhouette 0, which doesn't exist in N4 rules and should probably be Silhouette 'X'? Though X has no designated base size... ***EDIT - Army has been updated to fix this***
    • Is the Seed profile does not share equipment with the Developed Profile, is the Seed Embryo prohibited from declaring CC attacks once it's Chest Mines charges are used up? It does not possess it's own CC weapon otherwise

    I will endeavour to update this post rather than post any more issues that pop up.

    Seed rule for reference;
    upload_2020-10-16_13-36-38.png
     
    #1 paraelix, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  2. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Regarding criticism that "Seed has 2 profiles so why would it share equipment";

    So do Motorcycles. Their rules don't really clarify their split profiles any better, and the mounted and dismounted profiles are played as carrying the same equipment across both.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Below are the N3 FAQ responses;
    I would hope, however, that we receive more robust responses or amendments to the wording of the *actual rules* in lieu of a "Because you can't" response that doesn'y actually address why the problem exists in the first place.

    upload_2020-10-16_13-50-30.png
     
    #2 paraelix, Oct 16, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
    Leviathan likes this.
  3. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    Urgh, fucking seeds.

    Do seed soldiers lose camo when they start moving about? Everyone seems to play that they keep it, I've been telling them they don't but maybe I'm wrong.

    I tried to read the above stuff, but my eyes glaze over with rules technicalities.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    From page 111;

    ► The player will replace the Camouflage Marker or Seed-Embryo Token (SEED-
    EMBRYO) with the corresponding Model when:
     
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  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Looks like a change from how N3 worked.
     
  6. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Added
     
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  7. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Added - Silhouette 0 on the Seed profile is non-existent. Should be S X?
     
    #7 paraelix, Oct 23, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  8. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    Added - if equipment not shared across profiles, Seed has CC stat but limited use Chest mines and no CC weapon
     
  9. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    To posit some suggestions for fixes;
    - Seed-Embryo should benefit from the "Concealed" trait that mines use, so that it presents as an S2 Camouflage token. This stops it being instantly identifiable/requiring you to prone the Seed Soldier to be less obvious
    - Surprise Attack should apply to the developed profile
    - Some form of rules logic needs be applied for why the equipment on the Developed Shape does not apply to the Seed, unlike every other similar instance (Bikes, Transformation troops, etc)
    - In line with the above, make the Seed-Embryo a Marker-state, rather than a Token, to clear up confusion AND apply a Private Information tag so that the loadout is unknown until it hatches
    - Voluntary Hatch should be moved to the Status Phase or the Order Generation phase and clarified specifically for which turns it is usable
    - Costs should possibly be reviewed;
    • Seed-Embryo is almost a straight up handicap compared to just being a Camo (One Use) profile, and other single use camo troops (see Moran Maasai) are similarly priced whilst maintaining Mimetism post-Camo
    • Seed-Embryo offers little to no benefit for Cadmus - AD troops are designed to act immediately after deploying in order to take advantage of their alternate attack vector. The Seed-state runs counter to this, as it is entirely irrelevant (bar the Silhouette X) unless you do not activate the Cadmus. Similarly, the Cadmus is hamstrung by only the AD: Combat

    More radical suggestions for fix;
    - Change Seed-Embryo functionality to an equivalent of Transformation - have the seed act as an ablative wound. This would make use of Chest Mines relevant instead of Dodging always being the superior ARO option. Allow for cancellation of the Seed State in the same way as it is done now, via Dodge/Move. This also fixes the issue raised around a Seed-Embryo going Unconscious.
    - Remove existing functionality of Seed-Embryo and make Seed Soldiers function as a normal Camo (One-Use) troop and equip them with Minelayer and a Disposable (1) mine-equivalent to represent the Seed
    - Change AD: Combat Jump mechanics for Cadmus to function like Netrod/Imetrons, and have them AD deploy during the deployment phase
     
    #9 paraelix, Nov 11, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Concealed is no longer a trait for a weapon, but is inherent to the Camouflaged State and requires the user to be a piece of equipment in order to benefit from (edit: what I mean with this is that the rules for Concealed is in the Camouflage rules and not stand-alone in the Concealed traits, Concealed itself only really grants Camouflage to a piece of equipment). Rules technically there is fairly small wriggle room for it, and as for gameplay it sounds more like you don't agree with that the trooper is recognised as a Seed-Embryo trooper when it seems like the new rules for Seed-Embryo troopers were written specifically for them to be recognised as Seed-Embryo troopers and not as mines.

    I do suggest that you split out the rules concerns from the buff requests, though. It's a bit difficult to separate what is being asked about for clarity and what is demanded as balance alterations.
     
    #10 Mahtamori, Nov 11, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
  11. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    The rules concerns are the first/primary post.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Most of the stuff in the first post seem to be pretty much complications that come from N3 legacy when Seed-Embryo "worked" differently. In N4 they seem to be just regular troopers with two different profiles and (much like Bioimmunity) a legacy non-rule (that didn't make it to the wiki page entry) confusing things.

    I think in summary these two questions need answering:
    1. "Token" doesn't seem to be a valid state for a trooper?
    2. Does a Seed really have all equipment?

    Now, I think they wrote Token because they didn't want to write "Marker" as that would imply the seed shape doesn't have 180 LOF and that it would imply that you can't attack the seed shape, but they didn't want to write "figure" or "miniature" because that would imply that the 25mm seed marker couldn't be used to represent the trooper.

    Otherwise the seed trooper just works like a trooper. You might not like how that works and would like it to work differently (for example, it's pretty clear that you can't use Surprise Attack in reactive nor when you move the trooper in the same order), but that's perhaps better handled in a thread of its own in the Combined or possibly Human Sphere forums.
     
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  13. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    I never learned how seed soldiers worked in N3. Didn't come up against them that often, and when I did I just let my opponent tell me the outcome and said "ok, whatever you say!"

    So, coming at this with no brain clutter from N3, to me the answers to almost all the questions look pretty clear. I'd agree that it's unclear whether the seed form has 180 or 360 LoF once it's revealed. (My inclination would be that it has 180, because a "token" isn't a marker state, it's just an acknowledgement that there isn't a model for the seed form so you use a flat cardboard model instead.)

    It also looks clear that the seed form has all the weapons of the developed form, plus chest mines. I guess that's implausible based on how it worked in N3, or the fluff, or something? Without knowing any of that stuff, just reading the profiles it seems unambiguous.

    The rest of the questions also seem unambiguous. For example, yes, it seems clear that the seed form cadmus khd is a WIP 0 hacker. I guess the issue is that it works differently than N3 so the OP is wondering if the changes are intended?
     
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  14. Magnetkopf

    Magnetkopf New Member

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    why bother giving them surprise shot at all if they basically can't ever use it? I still believe this is an oversight.
    It makes absolutely no sense to only give it to the seed. Who is using surprise chest mine in the active turn? I can't think of any scenario where there isn't some better use for that order.
     
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  15. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Lots of units have skills and equipment of questionable value. Among other things, CB seems to use it as a way to achieve desired points costs within the framework of their formula. It might be an oversight, it might not. If it's an oversight, they haven't fixed it yet. It is what it is.

    Also, the seeds don't only have chest mines. Surprise attack panzerfaust seems decent. Not to mention the occasional surprise attack coordinated panzerfaust.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Surprise Attack doesn't really seem to cost anything and I think the issue is that Seed-Embryo states that if you cancel the Embryo state that "The new Developed Form profile is applied for the entire Order Sequence" (my emphasis) and the Developed Form doesn't have Surprise Attack while the Embryo Form which does have Surprise Attack doesn't have a BS value worth using.

    I do agree with Magnetkopf that Surprise Attack is probably intended to be on the Developed Form.
     
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  17. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    Fair enough, I didn't notice the seed had BS 0!

    (But if you get the target out of cover in good range and Spotlight them first, you can panzerfaust them on a 6 and give them a -9! Ok fine, I'd still choose to move first to panzerfaust on a 17 and only give them a -3.)
     
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  18. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    The wording of Seed/Profiles of Seed Soldiers are basically the same as they were in N3;
    upload_2020-11-18_8-6-14.png
    IJW confirmed only Seed has Surprise Attack.
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/seed-soldiers-missing-surprise-attack.38159/

    That is why it's on the list in the opening post. I did spell out that it was virtually useless. It is worth nothing that it actually functions in N4, however, because Surprise Attack now modifies dodge rolls on DTWs - where in N3 it actually did nothing because Surprise only affected FtF rolls and the Seed had been FAQ'd to have no gear other than the Chest Mine (a DTW).

    So one would have assumed if it was merely a profile error, it would have been picked up long ago. But it could just be evidence that nobody really understood how it functioned correctly.
     
    #18 paraelix, Nov 17, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2020
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