1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Reveling BS MOD of a fireteam.

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Imkariel, Aug 11, 2022.

  1. Imkariel

    Imkariel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    130
    Hello sorry to bothering you.


    I would like to know if and when the BS value bonus of a team core is reveal.

    Cause i had a game two night ago where i holomasked yasbir into an asawira and play a team core of :
    Two muyib
    1 govad
    Leila
    And an asawira ( yasbir).

    My opponent thought this was a non keyword team and tried to shoot my muyib HRL.
    During MOD calculation I revealed the +3 mod so he know that mine asawira is yasbir but to late the full bonus of +3 make me win the fight.


    Yesterday i was talking about this trick and one person thought it was a dick move and a bug abuse.

    That the team bonus is an open information and i can't do this trick.


    But raw i didn't found that the team bonus is an open information...

    Did you havr a clear answer or a thought on that ?


    Thanks have a nice day.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    According to the rules, the Fireteam bonuses are checked whenever a Fireteam has their membership altered (when forming, re-joining or when having units quit). As this is on-going game play information, they are not private information that you can keep from your opponent so they're as entitled to know it as you are and you are expected to share information like this as it is not necessarily something they may know by heart as it isn't their army list.

    As a community we call this "open information" even if it strictly doesn't quite fit the Open Information rules, but general sportsmanship isn't to be taken lightly, either.
     
  3. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    209
    IMHO you weren't cheating, but holomask rules interactions have always been little bit wonky in Infinity.

    https://infinitythewiki.com/HoloMask_State
    • While in HoloMask State, players don't place the HoloMask bearer's Model but the Model of any other Trooper (known as the imitated Model), declaring which weapon option it is duplicating from the imitated Model's Unit Profile.
    • The imitated Model must be a Trooper from the bearer's faction or Sectorial Army and must have the same Silhouette value as the bearer.
    • However, the player will use the real Unit Profile of the HoloMask bearer, just as it appears on their Army List.
    • A Trooper in HoloMask State cannot replicate those Deployable Weapons or pieces of Equipment represented by Tokens or Models (TinBots, FastPandas, SymbioMates, Mines deployed with the Minelayer Special Skill...) that the imitated Model has.

      --> I would say that all replications (like fireteam keyword) are ok except those mentioned above.
     
    #3 Tanan, Aug 11, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
    chromedog likes this.
  4. Imkariel

    Imkariel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    130

    I don't see your point but thanks you two for your answers.

    [​IMG]


    The composition is checked when I created it ok :

    I declare asawira 2 muib govad and leila.
    All of them have bahram except one so the team don't have the complete bonus.

    Holomask copy all the stat and rule of a trooper but just in illusion.

    When my fireteam shoot i calcul the MOD and reveal a +3 cause yasbir is bahram.



    So it's just a question of interpretation but nothing raw invalid my point or valid yours.

    It's why i asked my question here if someone with rules supporting is claim can help me.
    Or someone with autority on the subject.


    Have a nice day thanks again for yours answers.
     
  5. Iskandar

    Iskandar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    183
    The composition bonus of the fireteam is something you have to check when you create the fireteam and so at that point you have to say what bonuses the fireteam gets and holomask doesn't allow you to fake that. So if everyone in the fireteam is (bahram) then you have to say you have the full composition bonus
     
    #5 Iskandar, Aug 11, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
    Urobros, Mahtamori and Ashtaroth like this.
  6. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    209
    But do the rest of fireteam know that the holomask dude is a fake? One could make an argument that unless holomask isn't dropped in an ARO, the team doesn't have the full bonus. And we are talking here about +2 bonus to a single BS attack ARO. So much gamebreaking! ;)

    You can mimic a mimetism trooper and you only know that it doesn't have that skill when you declare an attack against it.
     
    Jumara likes this.
  7. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2019
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    313
    The only information you are allowed to obfuscate in the game is the one listed in Private Information. Everything else is either Open or knowable at all times.

    Fireteam (composition and otherwise) bonuses are not listed under Private Information, and you are, therefore, disallowed to obfuscate any bonuses they currently have.
     
  8. Iskandar

    Iskandar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2021
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    183
    Yes you can fake having a rule until another one requires you to reveal if you have it or not. So Composition bonus requires you to check if you have the tag when the fireteam is created therefore revealing if they are (bahram) or not
     
  9. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    209
    I would argue that the composition bonus can't see through holomask.

    This reminds me of a thread about holomask mimicing 360 visor and reciprocal LoF...

    EDIT - If we take this argument further could holomask trooper mimic base trooper to provide his pals that sweet pure fireteam bonus? Wildcard trooper in the truest sense ;)
     
    #9 Tanan, Aug 11, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
  10. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    852
    When your non-holo shoots and you calculate the MOD given by the real comp status; well that is exactly the same rule sentence that said to calculate the comp status when you formed the fireteam. So if you check and have +3BS when you perform an Order/ARO, then you had to also check and see you had a +3 BS when you formed the fireteam. Your trick would only work if you refuse to check the composition when you make fireteam and only check it once you are shooting.
     
    QueensGambit likes this.
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    You do not need to say what miniatures make or break the bonus, you only need to say what the bonuses are!
     
  12. Imkariel

    Imkariel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2018
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    130
    Ok but it's just your interpretation isn't it ?

    Or can you post black on white the rules/pages/lines which support your point ?

    cause appart from a rulling staff if you do not use rules to support your point how can I be sure it's not an interpretation of yours ?


    On the french discord server only one player see the problem like you the other are mainly in the same way of thinking than me.

    So we would like a clear point.

    It was said that i have to declare wich bonus i have when I created my fireteam but it's not written like that it's only mark : checked your fireteam composition.

    And if i have 4 chraacter in the same keyword and the last one different (with holo on or off)

    (exemple 4 shangji and 1 tiangaou shangji or 4 ghulam and yasbir as an asawira.)

    I give my opponent a big information just by giving him the bonus of the team..... When the book said all MOD are calculate just before rolling.


    If we follow your logic then mimetism, hackable statut etc should be reaveled too.


    Sorry if my post seem viriluent it's not my intentions I just search a clear answer but right now nobody here quote or use rules it's just interpretation. (my point of view too but I posted my question here for that .)
     
  13. Tanan

    Tanan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2019
    Messages:
    688
    Likes Received:
    209
    Welcome to Infinity Forums, you seem have figured out how this works already.
     
    Nuada Airgetlam and Imkariel like this.
  14. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    1,234
    Likes Received:
    852
    So that is the core of your argument ? The rule says to check, so i did, but the rule doesn't say what to do with that info so i'll check and do nothing.

    The rule says to measure the distance so I did but I won't tell you what it is as that's not in the rule. Feel free to measure our range band yourself. Actually, don't, because I've already did the measuring so there is no point to re-measure. But I'm still not saying what the range read.

    Not everything falls under Open/Private Info, which is related to your Army List. Everything else that is done during the game is done openly unless the rule says to check something privately.

    The rule was already quoted.

    This whole ordeal smells like the Deactivator prank that someone pulled on us; saying he only wants a rule quote, and that no one was giving him any rule quote but just opinions/interpretations. In the end the rule he wanted us to provide was the rule with which he opened up his "rule question".
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    In advance, I hope I'm not cutting your arguments in part by addressing specific sections of your post.
    I mean no personal criticism and apologise if my post comes across that way.

    Keep in mind that the game you play requires both players to how ready access to the rules, the game table, and a lot of information without the rules dictating exactly what they are allowed to know and not know. Consequently in order to play a game, any game, you need to know the game and the game would only really be able to put limits on what information you're allowed to know and not about the game state.
    Typically games will say both what is allowed to be secret and what has to be open if the game developer think the players might make a mistake. CB generally don't make those assumptions and to play Infinity you have to be able to observe the game as a whole. However, CB has specified what information you're allowed to keep secret and how:

    https://infinitythewiki.com/Open_and_Private_Information


    Well, in general the most important thing is for people to have an understanding of how the rules work. Whether that understand is correct according to the game developers or not is less important. Generally speaking on this sub-forum we're more concerned with what the rules say, however.

    The fireteam bonus check rules are in a very literal sense all over the Annex document that contains the Fireteam rules. For example:
    REMEMBER
    When the number of Fireteam members changes, the player must check both
    the Size and Composition Bonuses that the members can apply during the
    Order (see Fireteam Integrity, page 6).​

    If the trooper that is under the Holomask has Mimetism, is Hackable, etc, is answered by the Open and Private Information link I posted above. Any information on your Holomask trooper's profile is replaced by the thing they are pretending to be - but they are not that trooper. The best tactical suggestion I can give you is to make sure that you have another reason that your opponent can see for not getting the pure team bonus, so consider masking your Tian Gou as a Ye Mao instead.
     
    Ashtaroth likes this.
  16. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    FWIW my interpretation is:
    I assume that the intent of the rules is that you’re allowed to deceive your opponent about the fireteam’s bonuses up until they apply to a roll, since otherwise you’re giving away the “presence” of a Holomasked trooper in contravention of the Private Information rule.

    That said, this could really have used an explicit example, since it makes sense to take the opposite approach if you aren’t certain how broadly “presence” matters. The most obvious rules basis I can think of is that the fireteam bonuses of the non-Holomasked troopers are not Private Information on their own merits and would only become Private Info if Holomask is treated as an umbrella change.
     
    Daniel Darko likes this.
  17. colbrook

    colbrook Grenade Delivery Specialist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    9,294
    Likes Received:
    17,066
    Holomask only goes as far as the trooper, it doesn't stop you using it in a way that clues your opponent in to the fact you have a Holomask.

    For example, Holomasking a Kanren in the midfield as a Zhanshi, or Holomasking Cho as a Raptor without a Devabots, or Hector without his tinbot, or Holomasking Taowu as Le Muet in a Druze Fireteam, or having 3 Diggers when they're only AVA 2.

    Your opponent still won't know which member of the Fireteam is Holomasked, but they'll be suspicious if a seemingly pure Fireteam doesn't have its full bonuses.
     
    #17 colbrook, Aug 16, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2022
    saint, Mahtamori and QueensGambit like this.
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    12,018
    Likes Received:
    15,302
    ...or for those who either don't yet know or might have forgotten; equipment and states that produce immediate, too beneficial to opt out of or obligatory effects such as tinbots or albedo will also clue your opponent in.

    For example Knight Commander does not have a Tinbot so you may not place the Tinbot Marker next to it if they try to pretend to be a Santiago Combi Hacker
    Another example is Taowu who does not have Albedo so may never enter the Albedo state and the localized White Noise zone that must always be clearly marked will not exist meaning Lei Gong is a terrible thing to mask as
     
    colbrook and QueensGambit like this.
  19. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    Not disagreeing, I’m just not convinced that — assuming CB eventually FAQs this — they’ll implement what is in effect a soft nerf to linked Holomask troopers, given that they’re profiles with the specific design goal of deceiving one player about the membership of the fireteam. Four out of six Tian Gou profiles exist pretty much just for that purpose. Yes, you can mask them as an unlinkable or obviously faked trooper, but that falls more under user error than obligatory side effect of rules writing.
     
    Daniel Darko likes this.
  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2019
    Messages:
    2,213
    Likes Received:
    3,456
    I think it's been pointed out above, but you can always make a visibly mixed fireteam so that your opponent can't deduce from the bonuses that one of them must be a Tian Gou.

    And, look at Holoprojector - its design goal is to trick the opponent into thinking it's three troopers, but it's incapable of doing that against a minimally competent opponent. Instead it's just a way to clear mines. The recent update to the Ayyar didn't do anything to fix it. So I wouldn't assume that the Tian Gou will ever be able to fake a coherent link even if that was its design goal (which again, not clear since it can still fake a mixed link effectively).

    But, I mean, if they do eventually FAQ it then who knows, they could do anything. Hopefully they will and we'll know one way or the other. In the meantime, per others' posts above, the current rules seem pretty clear to me.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation