Let's assume that I go second and I start with my entire army in Hidden Deployment. It may be useful to do some ambushes / freak out my opponent etc. but I will start my turn with empty order pool until I reveal some units. Assume that I have Cutter LT that I would like to rampage with in my turn, so it needs to be properly fueled with orders (also revealed at the beginning of my turn so I would avoid LoL). Probability that my enemy goes straight into AROs of all hidden models I would like to reveal is rather slim. Would it be possible to reveal all models that I want with Alert declared by some TO infiltrator at the top of some very high overlooking building around end of my opponent's turn (of course I need to be able to declare this ARO at that moment)?
Every order your opponent spends where you don't alert reduces dramatically the chances that he bothers to spend the next. You'd likely be planning on Alerting once he's blown >half his pool and ideally wasn't activating a MSV2 trooper who'd just kill your defenceless Alert monkey (in fairness, you might not care). If your opponent cottoned on to your tactic, he'd look to make as many of his exposed moves as possible in the first few orders, then any subsequent ones would be under smoke or completely out of LOF to most of the board, then he'd just stop and burn his remaining orders (if I faced this with a ~15 order list, I'd look to stop after 7-8 orders) leaving you in LOL. It's risky, good luck if you do try it, pick your reserve as the Alert monkey and try to place it in a position where it has LOF to more than 2 enemy figures to maximise the chance that you will be able to ARO.
“ REMEMBER Troops in Hidden Deployment are neither figures nor Markers, so they cannot react to a Cautious Movement even if they have LoF. “ Deploy entirely in hidden deployment, see whether the other player remembers Cautious Movement.
very good points, but we find some thing, which i could call only as a bug in a rules... The HD & Camo state are canceled if a model DECLARES ARO. Also you NOT need LoS to declare CF. & you cant measure ZoC till resolve... so the opponent technicaly can Declare CF against ANY not Stealth & not cautious movement order on the table. when he measure ZoC & say "oh, so bad! it 24 inches. so i just reveal my model with idle" So you not ever need observer to declare Alert at all.... Did we understand mechanics right or it works somehow different?
No, that's not mechanically legal to do. To quote from the FAQ: Q: In the reactive turn, when can you measure the Zone of Control? A: Following the steps of the Order Expenditure Sequence: you declare a ZoC ARO, and in the step of resolution, is when the players take measurements. So, is troop is in the ZoC, resolve his ARO, but if not, the ARO is lost. Note that it says "the ARO is lost", not the model performs Idle. Otherwise, you may as well claim that the Hidden Deployment models all just declare ARO BS Attack against the active model when they can't see it.
@solkan - i think you not understand what i wrote. re-read please. I newer say he measure right after declaration. but the problem is not in a timing. & even with Lost ARO - just DECLARATION helps you leave a HD & CAMO state, not performing
And you're not reading what solkan wrote. The ARO is lost, not turned into an Idle. As in nothing was performed, nothing was declared.
@ijw how we would be with this: Cancellation The Hidden Deployment state is automatically canceled whenever the trooper declares any Short Skill, Entire Order or ARO. & this one too: A trooper's TO Camouflaged state is canceled, and its Marker replaced by its model, whenever: The TO Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert). ??? & just listen to yourself? you realy sure if nothing performed so nothing declared??? i declare CF. what will you do? on this step i must reveal HD & Miniature. & measure ZoC only in Resolve... somthing goes wrong...
if it was borderline, say 8" and a quarter; then you lose the ARO which means you undo the reveal because you never had an ARO to declare in the first place; and your declaration was accidental. Similar as if you bump a model or scenery you try to put it back where it was because you never had the reason to displace the miniature or terrain piece. (you are allowed and expected to displace a miniature when declaring a Dodge or Move skill.) In the case of declaring a ZoC ARO to something 24" away, then in addition to my previous point the other player should really triple check every movement you declare and do afterward because either you try to cheat by making a ZoC ARO on something that is obviously out of ZoC range, or you are just that out of touch with distance measurement (perhaps you are used to cm so being forced to use inch is something new).
so you think we play it wrong, & all the things must be UNDone & reverted back? well, may be this could be a solution. but before lets look to some situations: situation 1 An enemy TAG make a movement. i have a AHD in HD. i not sure in a distance... & try declare Total Controll. Reveal model. TAG declares Reset. we measure ZoC - & it NOT in a ZoC of a hacker. we should revert my tropert to a HD state back, right? Situation 2 An enemy TAG make a movement. i have a AHD in HD. i not sure in a distance... & try declare Total Controll. Reveal model. TAG uses second move - & for sure come to a ZoC. should we measure was it in my ZoC in a moment i DECLARE? because if not - it was not appropriate ARO & i may lose It if i had LoS for example... Situation 3 An enemy TAG make a movement. i have a AHD in HD. i not sure in a distance... & try declare Total Controll. Reveal model. TAG uses second part & declares HFT. we measure & find out we have a LoS between us but not a ZoC. What now? Situation 4 i had a troper in HD. enemy make a move. i declare a shoot. he declares second part. in resolve we find out that my Hidden trooper had no LoS because of for example smoke teamplate - we should get my trooper back to a HD state? Situation 5 i had a troper in HD. enemy make a move. i declare a shoot. he declares second part. in resolve we find out what i cant shoot - the range is MORE whan maximum range of my BSh. will i get back to a HD???
Situation 1. As long as the proposed alternative is a free reveal "I think it is in ZoC" Total Control from anywhere in the board, I'd say yes you'll revert. Situation 2. Same as declaring a DTW on a model who you think will get hit, to find out he didn't get hit but then did made a second Move into hit distance.... I don't know how exactly it is resolved. In the case of BS Attack I know you can shoot at any point of the enemy movement including future movement he'll do (ex: Shoot + Move leaving cover). Not sure about DTW and ZoC hacking. Guts feeling (didn't verify the rule yet) is that if you could not DTW or Hack then you lose your ARO. I know you cannot preemptively declare a Shoot ARO with a combi where the active model will only be in your LoF after his second movement skill. So i wouldn't be surprised if you cannot preemptively declare a DTW before the model actually gets in DTW range. That is what I would have hoped the solution to be, but CB already ruled that ZoC must be measured only at the end of the Order. Which unfortunately makes it possible to declare ARO you didn't had. And they ruled that you lose the ARO when that happen. (so yes, if you declare hack instead of shoot and you had LoS but not ZoC, then CB wants you to lose your ARO. ) I would have preferred to measure as you declare the ARO so that you can refrain from declaring it if you are out of range. The same way we measure trigger area at the same time we declare a mine triggering and we refrain from having it trigger if we find out we are out of trigger area. Situation 3. Same as above, you had an ARO to do, you picked one that you couldn't do. I'd still allow the active player make the declared HFT because 1) it was legal when declared 2) he was allowed to do a second short skill and shouldn't lose it (unlike the reactive player who was not allowed to ARO and must lose it according to CB) Situation 4. LoF is open information and must be checked prior to declaring an ARO (or Skill) that requires LoF. It is similar to my model declaring a combi ARO against a model behind a wall only to later find out there is a wall in the way... not sure how that happened; but would be the same as declaring a shoot through smoke when you already knew where your model was, where smoke was, and where the enemy model was. I don't agree that you should keep your model revealed for free by declaring an invalid Shoot ARO against anybody on the board. (and the reveal is important to do if it was your Hidden Lt) Situation 5 is plainly covered by the rule for BS Attack. It is considered a successful declaration with a result of Fail (the same as finding out your Modified BS is 0, auto-fail of the attack and you expend the disposable weapon). You don't need to revert, you had ARO, took it, and failed your dice roll.
That's the opposite position to the one you argued and @HellLois took on incorrectly declared ZOC interactions: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/solved-when-do-i-check-zoc-for-sixth-sense.23413/ You'll note that what you're saying is the position I took on it in that thread, which was rejected. The only conclusion from that thread that I can make is that incorrectly declared ZOC interactions are lost by becoming Idle. Tl:dr we've had this conversation. @HellLois has ruled on it. AROs that aren't legal become Idles.
well - i must say what if it were played anyhow different - we would be in even MORE problems with all that UNDOing. I think you can trace this problems in the examples i made for @Robock. & still even such abuse tactic not work if a player use stealth, cautious moves or just stop spending orders....
Then, you can wait for the very last order of your opponent, declare Change Facing with all your hidden deployment units and reveal them, right?
That is how I understand it. The only thing preventing that is 'Don't be a dick': claiming an ARO at unreasonably long distances falls under that heading when it is immediate apparently that no such ARO exists. @JoKeR 'undoing' things is not actually a big issue. I think the rules work better the way @ijw described (basically you distinguish between things that are merely declared and those that are resolved: this allows you to declare AROs on a whim but only resolve ones that are a response to an ARO that was actually generated).
The 'Don't be a dick' rule is reason enough for me not to do it. Also, I think it's a pretty wasteful way of using expensive TO troops anyway. But I've had experiences with 'dick players' and their 'dick strategies'. So I'm always on alert when I discover new ways to abuse the rules.
