Hello, fellow Aleph commanders! Today, I want to ignite a conversation around our Achilles. With the -6 mimetism already making him a formidable presence on the battlefield, I believe it’s time to evolve his tactics to face the current meta. Here’s my take on upgrading Achilles to version 3.0. Addressing the Threat Landscape: Achilles, as he stands, faces several potent threats: - Guided missiles, which can be a death sentence for heavy units caught in Targeted State. - Hacking, - Berserk attacks no FtF, no defence, Countering the Threats: - ECM: Guided -6: This will level the playing field, offering Achilles a fair FtF roll against guided missile attacks. - WIP 15: His willpower is a shield against hacking attempts, - Smoke Grenades: The simple yet effective way to counter berserk attacks. In smoke, Achilles can fight on equal in CC. Offensive Capabilities: - Weaponry: The AP Spitfire might be iconic, but it’s not the only option. In my opinion, the Breaker Marksman Rifle +1B would be a stellar alternative, slicing through enemy defenses with ease. Alternatively, a Multi Marksman Rifle +1B could offer versatility. However, the breaker ammo seems more fitting for Achilles's prototype style. - Heavy Pistol +1B: This would allow Achilles to double tap in CC against softer targets, while his sword would remain the tool of choice for tougher foes. - Smoke Grenades: Again, they serve a dual purpose, aiding in both offense and concealment. Defensive Strategies: - Switching W to STR: Taking a leaf out of Eudoros’s could offer Achilles more resilience. - Retaining the -6 Mimetic: It’s essential to maintain his Myrmidon essence. - Smoke Grenades: I can't stress enough how these not only complement his survival but also enhance his offensive transitions. We could see two distinct versions of Achilles: Achilles 2.0: With the AP Spitfire, Armor 6, etc. Achilles 3.0: As described, without heavy weapons, priced at 60 points, 1 SWC. These changes would integrate seamlessly with new unit types like Maximus, etc., keeping Achilles relevant and fearsome in the face of evolving threats and strategies. What are your thoughts on this proposal for Achilles 3.0? Let's discuss and refine the future of our Hellenic hero! pzdr.
You forgot: Cheap Natural Born Warriors (neuters MA... the Chimera is so funky it has CC Attack -3, MA2 and NBW all at once...) Enemies with Total Inmunity PARA Weapons with -6 Overabundance of Mimetism-3 and -6 In essence the problem of Achilles is that he costs a lot to be able to do a lot, but at the same time this doesn't give him any protection against specific vector threats provided by specialized and much cheaper units. First changes I would do would be to remove Achilles' Martial Arts, and give him CC Attack (-3 +3) Damage (CC +3), removing his weakness to NBW and possibly even cheapening him. Second, I would give him both Sixth Sense and Inmunity (IMM State). Sure, this won't stop the cheapo Berserkers, but with sixth sense he can always dodge away ignoring enemy Stealth, making it so a berserker needs to reach Achilles with much more difficulty. Also, for Achilles V1 I would change that Spitfire for an AP spitfire too. A normal ammo weapon is quite meh nowadays. Unless Achilles gets Marksmanship too, which I don't think is coherent.
Every good or better HI wants a better protection vs Hacking, vs G-Missiles etc. pp. You want to make something better that is already top tier - all his stats are on max for a S2 he is pretty capable to take care himself without upgrading him or sneak in a lower SWC version with 24" range. Simply no need. Giving him smoke also is rediculous. Hes is the leader of the pack, others can provide smoke cover. If you want to protect him vs hacking and guided, take a EVO and cast fairydust HI. There a plenty of units that realy need an upgrade. PS: Only Corinthian Version has AP Spitfire.
To xagroth: Agreed on the NBW point - the Heavy Pistol +1 Burst somewhat counters the CC struggle. Total Immunity is a concern, hence the breaker weapon - it's effective even against tough targets like Bears. As for mimetism, a higher burst or smart CC tactics usually do the trick. To archon: "I have to disagree with your view on Achilles being top-tier; he's more mid-tier in practice. Looks great on paper, but doesn't always hold up in battle. The issue with hacking is understood for heavy units like Achilles, but should guided missiles really dictate the game to the extent that a 60+ pt investment becomes a dice roll 18 to 12?? My proposal of changes aim to make him a viable A-tier choice, not S-tier overpowering.
Guided are a problem on itself. Luckily not in my meta. If Achilles gets the TAG like -6 vs Guided then what about Joan d´Arc and other powerful characters. Achilles is still a formidable Alpha-Gunner, that kills things with ease in CC also. I still do not see that he needs an upgrade.
You are right, this ECM -6 is not a good idea. The problem with him is not the attack, but the defence. Changing his weapons affects his playstyle, notice I don't want +1B changes on the sword like some CA profiles.
Since Achilles can't link in any fireteam, giving him sixth sense makes it realy hard to land any Guided or speculative fire. It means a +30% to dodge (from 9 to the base 15!), and melee chasers have to deal with his dodging for 3 or 4 inches per successful roll. Breaker weapons are just BTS-attacking ones, instead of ARM ones. I don't think they are needed, because he carries a Pulzar or a Nanopulser in all profiles (I think).
Total Immunity (which was used as the reason to give him a Breaker weapon) ignores the AP. And I assume we are talking mostly about cheap Ariadnan "only viral hurts" hirsute-men/podes, otherwise a Breaker weapon is worse than a Multi one of the same type. Were I to be able to make a choice... sure, give him a Breaker pistol, and switch the Nanopulser or Pulzar for flamethrowers. Or even better, for Zapper/Emarats!
Breaker is sufficient for TI with low BTS, Viral would be too strong. imho Breaker > Multi --- But this is just my feeling. Flamers are not Alephs weapons, Nanoplusar is good enought.
Let him join Myrmidon fireteams. It makes sense, gives him solid bonuses and doesn't "mess" with him too much. It's also a trade-off, since it'll slow him down in return (he's tied to a bunch of 4-4 MOV guys), reducing his alpha-charge He would compete with other really good fireteams in SP (Hector+buddies, Ajax+Myrmidons, etc.), so taking an Achilles fireteam is a balancing choice ("Can I take an Achilles-link AND a Hector-link... that's a lot of points... what about an Ajax-link, instead... then can I afford enough support?" etc.) Plenty of power-houses can join links already (both in and out of SP), so there's precedent within the meta It also makes sense historically because... you know... Achilles led the Myrmidons...
In a fireteam his frenzy*) would not trigger - until the FT breaks and he kills his first victim until then. In other words his biggest weakness will be canceld. I think there is a reason, that he is not fireteamable. The idea of 6th sense is better then. That would underline that he is an exceptional great fighter that alwasy has a feel for his surroundings. *) frenzy in fireteams is still cheating the own rules in my opinion
I think you are missing my point entirely. And the only Total Immunity troops with lower BTS than ARM by a good margin are Ariadnan troops, who prefer melee anyways, so the sixth sense solves them by a lot, I think. Is he? I mean, Hyppolita and Eudoros are both 6-2, and bringing Acmon removes the IMM/ISO problem. But most important, he would run an Acmon + Machaon+Eudoros 4man... and shoot at 16 with his AP Spitfire, with access to 2 sources of Eclipse Smoke... For sure it would be epic, but also VERY problematic in the table for everyone else (2-4 smokes against an attacker...). Change Machaon for Pandora if you prefer to use only Medikits (still 3 medikits for a base PH of 15!), or heck, Achilles + Machaon + 2 chain rifle myrmidons for maximum mayhem... I have seen Hector in the table... in O12 lists. Never in ASS... The only real use I can think for him is as a very expensive tinbot-bearer that is also a solid fighter, with Pandora and Scylla in a SP Haris created by the Hoplite. Even so, that's early 165 points in a single, non-pure, link! Well, aside from having him, Ajax and some chain rifle myrms... I don't think that's the reason, since we have Hyppolita and Eudoros, who don't have Frenzy but the more extreme version (they start the game "activated" so to speak!). I think it's mostly the melee death star that would be, and having Achilles protected by other Myrmidons, there was a small amount of time in which he would link with Acmon, before Patroclus' removal (Duo with Acmon, who was a wildcard), and that removed entirely his most problematic weaknesses (IMM from EM weapons imposing a -12 to Reset)
Then make the other version of Achilles be in a fireteam and leave Rich, Corinthian Achilles as-is. Even better! Now there's a choice between crazy-charging, screw-my-comrades-I-got-this-with-AP Achilles, and more cautious, not as powerful, team-player Achilles. List building should be about choices and compromise and this gives more of both!
So you're saying that a 150-180pts. link would be really good? That's exactly what I'd expect (talk to anyone that plays an Avatar, or X really good link, you put in the points, you get the goods) You can already make great links with Acmon+Machaon+Eurdoros or Hyppolita+Eudoros+Acmon and can take Achilles separately. Or for the same points you could take one link with Achilles in it and get the bonuses from a 4-man link and little more efficiency out of Achilles while losing efficiency from rest of the link (every order that Achilles is doing something, Eudoros, et. al. are just moving and cheerleading him on) Then your meta is very different from mine. Hector adds three orders, two hold backs, a plasma rifle, three wounds (basically)... he's a great add to SP. Like you said, put him with Pandora (good luck EVER hacking her) and a shooter (Thor. with Feuerbach, a Hoplite, or...) and you have a solid firebase (and when the shooter dies you charge Hector in late game when you care less if he dies) So you run an Acmon link parallel to Achilles and when Achilles gets IMM you activate whatever link Acmon is in to free him. The big difference is Achilles got a few less orders, but Acmon was probably a lot safer because he could hang back until needed, rather than getting pulled forward in an Achilles link. My general point is that letting Achilles link adds some utility to him, but you also lose utility from whoever he's linked with, which is exactly the point of links (you gain some abilities, but lose some abilities) and was the point of the thread (give Achilles some more utility)
Nope, I'm saying they would have no inmediate weakness, and that they only solution against such fireteam would be brute force. Let me tell you, that's not fun. He adds three orders: in fact, he adds 1, because NCO (Eudoros) makes all the other Lts more or less the same (and you WILL be moving Eudoros' fireteam always). I notice more the "save 2 troops to deploy later", frankly, but he's nearly +30pts over other units... for his price I can fit a hero and 2 chain rifle Myrms, or even a full Thorakitai fireteam! IF we were limited to a single combat group, then I agree he would be a great option, but as is, I feel him a subpar. As for the Plasma Rifle, I agree he's good, specially because his X-visor makes him a better shot than even Achilles at around 30', and the Grenades can help remove enemy pitchers in a bad location... but he has no Smoke, so he forces all linked troopers to forego Smoke Dodge, making him a bad fit for myrmidons, which are the ones that best help his movement around... As for the three wounds, He's good in Starmada linked with Parvati because she tops him up, otherwise, I prefer Eudoros for most stuff, and fit an Agema ML with Hidden Deployment instead (hopefully they will fix them and remove the Hidden Deployment for a Camo Marker, or downgrade the MSV2 to MSV1)... Same luck as with Thamirys, it's the exact same stats and even the Zero Pain (it was upgraded in N4), only getting the Dodge -6, losing the nanopulser for a Flash Pulse +1, and getting 2 extra profiles (one of them with the Medikit +1B and a pulzar for +2pts!) Sure, choices, which is always good. Only, Achilles with those three is a little too good, since he gets Eclipse Smoke to reach wherever, and can drop the other three on the road and go all medieval on the enemies (specially a TAG) while Eudoros and the other two reposition or whatever. Or they melee a target for 4 EXP attacks... In fact, it would be fun (as in meme) to have a full Starkiller fireteam with Achilles, Hyppolita, Hector and Ajax for EXP goodness XD
Achilles should represent the pinnacle of Steel Phalanx and Aleph recreation technology. The truth is that V1 is good, but a bit overpriced. The original counterpart was the epitome of the warrior, no one could beat or compete with him in a duel. The problem is that recently Natural Born Warrior was spammed to many cheap profiles that for half or one third of the cost can beat him. In my opinion give him NBW will not make him overpower, but will help to justify his power cost. Personally I will also add Martial Level 5 as Musashi or even +1B Cc as Nourkias (Achilles is a semi-God and make no sense Aleph make recreations for allies better than its own)
Just making NBW not work on MA 4 and 5 would solve a lot. The pinnacle of skill should not lose to the barbarian, imo.
The main problem with Achilles has always been his cost, be it the direct cost or the oportunity cost (what you can't bring to the table if you bring him, in this case). Eudoros is so buffed and 20 to 30pts cheaper, he is a better choice most of the time (the others, Hyppolita is more than enough), having also Eclipse smoke to ignore all enemies. I still think getting 6th sense would completely change Achilles in the Reactive turn, since it would make it much harder to reach him thanks to his bonuses to dodge. I'm not happy with adding exceptions to rules, it's more stuff to check. Giving Achilles the flat modifiers seem better to me, after all the Chimera has CC-3, NBW, Martial Arts... all in the same package for 20 pts and the Eclipse Smoke to reach melee, because flat out modifiers as skills, past a certain point, are cheaper than improving base stats.
