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Responsibilities for right hidden info ?

Discussion in 'ITS' started by karolis, Mar 13, 2018.

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  1. karolis

    karolis Member
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    After final game in Infinity Europian Challenge I wanted to start discussion about how to judge difficult situations in big tournaments there line between just forgetting and forgetting intentionally is quite questionable and can mean quite a lot .

    The situacion which occured in my last tournament finals (satelite -Europian Infinity chalenge):

    I played versus Leigbar . In second turn I was in absolute advantage - 17 orders (he killed just 3 not important models) Vs 3 orders (on the table just two drones and doctor worm) and I have killed his data tracker.

    So at the start of his new turn he says that he is in RETREAT state and the game ends and he won the game because he has clicked one console and I will not have my Turn to change it. I was really surprised because I was approximately (as I don't know all the costs by heart) counting how much I killed and for me it looked really far from 330 (it was hight tears tournament and he had two bagages so retreat state begins if I kill him more than 330).

    So I asked is it really ALL unkilled troops in your list wort just 88 (how he declared ). He confirmed. It was hard to me to believe that I really made my approximately calculations so wrong so I asked one more time. He confirmed. Then I asked someone from organizers who was around (it was final table and someone was filming it and running around) he talked with my opponent in Spanish and confirmed.

    So because Infinity is Gentleman's game and we have to trust each other - I believed in it and blamed myself for such stupid mistake.

    So he won the tournamet and I lost.

    But hour after tournament I recreated his list with army builder and it was 80 points missing and understood that my opponent forget to mention that he had two non deployed troops in his rezerve which also counts towards surviving points.

    So two hours after the tournamnet I went back to organizers and made protest. But I didn't want that my opponent would be represed for cheating , so I politely sad that maybe he forgot or something.

    Afters several days organizers replayed that it was my mistake that I believed in my opponent and didn't know hidden information in his list. So they will not change outcome of the satellite tournament.

    The problem is that this situation creates interesting precedent for making "accidental " mistakes in tournaments environment (its really hard to believe that best world ITS players suddenly forgets two hidden units in his list) and if someone is not couth on spot - then it's ok and he bears no responsibility even if his mistakes were uncovered little bit later.

    So what's your opinion about the situation and precedent in general?
     
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  2. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    All private info become open info once the model is dead. Before agreeing to him being in retreat, you should have made him declare the exact cost of each of his dead unit so that you could add up the points to see if you really killed 330 Pts. He doesn't need to tell you the Pts of any of his hidden troop.
     
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  3. vettel

    vettel New Member

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    I doubt they deceive you
     
    #3 vettel, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  4. eldereth

    eldereth Member

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    I definitely agree with you.


    It's not a player's fault that his/hers opponent and the judge misunderstood or interpret wrongly the retreat rule and what points of your opponent band count for that purpose.

    As a courtesy in general, and having in mind that you both where playing the final, he should have shown you the list after the game, just to be sure that no mistake was made.

    Also, they have to keep in mind that the common language for international infinity play is English, and if they not feel comfortable speaking it or understanding entirely what was going on, the fair thing should have been to call another person who can actually translate for a better understanding of the situation.

    If it was in my hand, I should definitely speak with Corvus and try to correct at least ITS points and ask for forgiveness for the bad judgment of the moment.

    It’s also true that situations like these could happen more often that we would like to believe and at some point, correct every single situation just by memory could generate a bad environment and more uncomfortable situations that the ones that emend.

    Having said that, I hope Organization will rethink this and act accordingly.

    Regards

    Eldereth
     
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  5. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Assuming everything is as you said, and you haven't left anything out...

    Intentional or not, your opponent cheated. And your TOs allowed it, and then blamed you for it. I'd have a pretty big problem with this, personally. If I were your opponent, and really truly forgot about having double the points I originally stated (which seems unlikely) due to not yet deployed troops, I'd be pushing for the TOs to correct this myself.
     
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  6. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    So in this situation I think the TOs failed you completely. It would be one thing if none of them witnessed it and two hours later you came up to them with complaints, but an organizer spoke to your opponent and confirmed what he was saying regarding Retreat, so someone in an official capacity saw what was happening. You gave them additional context 2 hours later, at which time they had all the tools necessary to confirm that he misrepresented information in a significant way. Even if they had already reported the results, I can't see any reason that they couldn't work it out with CB. If CB didn't wanna change it, their hands are tied but the organizers should tell you if that's the case.

    If events played out as you've stated in this post, those TO's should be embarrassed and I'm sorry that it cost you first place. It sets a terrible precedent.

    EDIT: Later in this thread, it becomes clear that this is not a clear scenario. For the record, the TOs should not be embarassed, and it was preemptive of me to state that without the whole story.
     
    #6 Tom McTrouble, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  7. Sibelius

    Sibelius Nope

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    Before this goes on, no, any organizer nor judge was called at the table we only know about it two hours later two hour later with everyone gone and in the middle of packing the tournament.
     
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  8. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    I mean that's a pretty big discrepancy. If this turns into "I say/They Say" deal I can't really have an opinion.
     
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  9. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Based on what is going on in the WGC Facebook group, it sounds like a 3rd party was consulted, but who OP thought was acting as a judge was not actually an official judge. This is a big problem, but a different kind of a problem. @Sibelius I am assuming you were involved in the organization of this tournament? Perhaps this could be a lesson to have clearly defined arbitrators, maybe they have a badge or something?
     
  10. sparco_sj

    sparco_sj EIC 2019!
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    Copiamos el comunicado oficial emitido por la organización hoy a las 11:42 am, menos de 48 horas después de la finalizacion del torneo:



    COMUNICADO OFICIAL

    Como vemos que van creciendo los rumores queremos adelantarnos y publicamos este comunicado para explicar lo que paso en la partida de la Final:

    Varias horas después de la finalizacion del torneo. Uno de los jugadores de la final detecto que se había realizado mal el recuento para la retirada de su rival. Su rival gano la partida porque entro en retirada. Pero tras hablar con ambos jugadores, y con personas que estaban viendo la partida, creemos que no fue intencionado.

    Así que hemos decidido no modificar el resultado de la partida, ni la clasificación final.

    Explicamos nuestras razones:
    - La partida acabo con 30 minutos de margen, tiempo mas que suficiente para pedir que (un juez, otro jugador o incluso el encargado del ITS, presente en el torneo) lo revisaran. Asi que consideramos el error de ambos jugadores.
    - Consideramos que una vez entregados los papeles de control de torneo a la organización se considera que ambos jugadores están de acuerdo con el resultado. Algo que incluiremos en las bases de nuestros futuros torneos.
    - Creemos que modificar el resultado de forma ajena al juego sentaría un precedente muy negativo en este tipo de eventos. Ya que todo el mundo podría revisar sus partidas para solicitar modificaciones a posteriori.
    - Si no hubiese entrado en desbandada la partida hubiera seguido jugando, es imposible saber el resultado final de la misma ya que aun quedaban turnos para jugarse.

    Es una lastima que algo así pueda empañar, aunque sea minimamente, la experiencia vivida por todos los jugadores. Ya que creemos que el evento fue un gran éxito y ya trabajamos en que el año que viene sea mas grande y mejor.

    Por nuestra parte no queremos que este asunto transcienda mas alla de este comunicado.

    Muchas gracias por asistir al primer European Infinity Challenge.

    Saludos.

    P.D: Muy pronto publicaremos el resumen, las fotos y mucha información sobre el evento"

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We copy the official statement issued by the organization today at 11:42 am, less than 48 hours after the end of the tournament:

    Official statement

    As we have seen rumors beginning to spread, we would like to get out in front of the issue and publish this statement to explain what happened during the final game.

    A few hours after the end of the tournament, one of the players in the final realized that the survivor count for his opponent to enter Retreat! had been made incorrectly. The opponent went on to win the match because he had entered Retreat! After talking to both players, and with people who had watched the game, we believe that this mistake was not intentional.
    Due to this fact, we have decided to not modify the result of the game or the final classification.

    Our reasons are as follows:
    The game finished with 30 minutes to spare, more than enough time to ask a judge, another player or even the ITS supervisor present at the tournament to check the results. Due to this, we consider it a mistake made by both players.
    We consider that once they have handed in their tournament control sheets, both players are showing that they agree with the results. We will be including this as a specific rule in all our future tournaments.
    We believe that changing the result of the game after the fact would risk setting a negative precedent for this kind of event. Everyone would want to be able to review their games and ask for changes after the fact.
    If the game had not entered Retreat! it would have continued and it is impossible to be certain what the result would have been as there were still turns left to play.
    We regret that something like this might in any way spoil the experience the players had at the tournament. We believe that the event was a great success and we are already working so that next year it can be bigger and better.

    From our side, we consider the matter is settled but we wanted to be transparent and share the reasons behind the decision with the community.

    Thank you for coming to the first European Infinity Challenge
    Greetings
    PS: Soon we will be publishing a report on the event with photos and a lot more information on what went on during the weekend.

    #49sparco_sj, Hoy a las 11:42
     
  11. realder

    realder Member

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    @karolis Did you field the same unpainted, as in not even primed unpainted, army that you fielded at the Nordic Masters?

    Using the term "Gentleman" when fielding a completely unmarked army, making it harder for your opponent to tell miniatures apart, potentially having to ask which model belongs to which group (which drains you opponents time) is a bit hypocritical. You also didn't see anyone from that tournament taking to the forums to complain about it. I didn't have to face you, which is good since I would have to ask you a lot about your models (don't know Nomads by heart, and unpainted are even harder to tell apart). You would likely have tabled me anyway (I'm not a very good player :P).

    Anyhow, I can see that you are upset and there is no argument as to how the retreat rules work. From you opponents point of view, playing a silver horde at the finals of a big tournie, I can definitely see mental capacity being used to deal with keeping track of your stuff rather than ones own.

    Are you asking CB/the community to chime in on changing the result or are you asking for a precedent on people making "accidental mistakes"?

    My opinion is that the TO's need to be able to make calls when it comes to their own tournaments, to the best of their abilities, and the participants need TO respect the TO's ruling. If you doubt the TO's abilities, don't go next time. When it comes to "accidental mistakes" I believe that it would change the game we play from an awesome game of cooperation (every game I've ever played has been cooperative) to a game of suspicion.
     
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  12. Sibelius

    Sibelius Nope

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    Yes I was the head judge in the tournament, I its true we only had a lanyard around our necks to dientify oirselves, it was not enought that is granted, we made a feedback survey and we will mend a lot of the things that where overlooked and will be mend in future events
     
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  13. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    This is pointless and unproductive ad hominem. How much paint is on someone's models has literally nothing to do with rules and rulings.
     
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  14. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    This is a trash call.

    lol are you for real
     
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  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Lessons are always learned from big tournaments. If a TO said it went perfectly, then they'd be lying. Sounds like mistakes were made on multiple fronts, but that the TOs have made the best decision possible in the situation.
     
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  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Why? According to the information they had, everything was fine as the tourney closed out, and both players had attested to it. What could they do differently with a complaint brought after the tournament is half packed and the players are gone? What good option did they have? They (to my eyes) picked the least bad from what they had to work with.
     
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  17. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Yes, if judges aren't made aware of a problem until after the tournament is closed and done, there's really not much that can be corrected without screwing SOMEONE over.
     
  18. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    @macfergusson Thanks you got to it before I could.

    Time to bite the bullet and start making assumptions for an event I didn't attend. @sparco_sj I understand your logic by which you didn't want to set a precedent and honestly I can't say I would have made a different decision, that's tough. It seems like you first learned the information hours later, and I think from your end you probably made the most practical decision. However, I have to disagree with your statement that what happened is a mistake by both players. Your post seems to indicate that checking with another player to check the results would have been sufficient. Even if he thought he was talking to a judge and wasn't, it seems like he fulfilled that requirement (unless the third party wasn't even a player.)

    I can agree that you can't change the result, but to say OP made a mistake on top of that seems unnecessary. The mechanics of Infinity are built on mutual trust, and he took his opponents private info at face value, which is what you are supposed to do.
     
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  19. Leirbag

    Leirbag Well-Known Member

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    I apologise for my share, I made a mistake. I realized when Karolis mentioned it to me hours later.
    That's what I said to the organization.

    Greetings
     
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  20. Silagast

    Silagast Señor de los cabezas huecas,o eran hombres huecos?

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    Probably the mistake was to call the situation a mistake by both players. Problably it should had be written neglect or disregard

    But the question is that we, as spanish people, do not always have the proper level of english to communicate such a difficult situation to handle. Maybe we can play a game in english, maybe we can even speak good english talking about our hobby, but discussing at this level in english is not just to translate it and hope that a person who feels that has been hurted by an unfair situation will accept it.

    There were some things of the tournament to be improved in the future and for sure we will do our best.

    PD: Many people is talking about courtesy, honour and trust but the fact is that a complain was presented with the score signed and accepted and after counting the points list 2 hours after the tournament ended. Is that also a trust behaviour?
     
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