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REMs and the sectorials.

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Tourniquet, May 29, 2020.

  1. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    So far in both of the two more modern sectorials (CJC and TJC) they both currently do something different to each other and vanilla when it comes to the Tsyklon combat REMs. CJC allows for them to be included in half of the core teams available to them and TJC gives them FD1 for an extra two points (I really wish that this was also extended to the Lunokhod to help with the defence in TJC).

    So I have a few questions for the community at large;

    1. following this trend how do you think BJC would implement them in a way that is different to the other sectorials and vanilla?

    I'm thinking the addition of something like Albedo, or AD2 to finally give them something that isn't stuck to their side of the table.

    2. Has anyone tried a more mechanised TJC Build if so how did it go? It's an Idea I've wanting to try for a while but haven't been able to for obvious reasons.

    3. Do they actually see much table time at all outside of CJC in the first place?
    I've often found Tsyklons a little on the awkward side to build around especially in vanilla, though that may be more of a list style issue than anything, but once they are on the table they usually do something that was worth it.
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Overall I'm waiting to see how N4 develops. There's a lot of changes / potential changes that have huge impacts for how Nomad REMs operate.

    1. I don't think they're great in BJC as it stands. Tsyklon-focused archetypes have build requirements to leverage the investmentt that drive you to a Moderator core. Really, you can make that list archetype work in Vanilla better. I think this will probably remain true into N4 unless something fundamentally changes with how Moderator Cores operate.

    Honestly for BJC, a Lunokhod that can join Moira Cores would be the easiest game changer on the REM front. It adds some defensive oomph to a core that's otherwise quite fragile: one of the first Moira Core lists I played was a LI list with 2 Lunokhods as a defensive screen.

    2. I don't think TJC leverages them well. They're kinda designed as a fast attack piece that uses FD1 to start in a better position. But that's actually still quite inefficient as it relies on spending orders on Hacking to really be effective when you compare it to Kriza, Hollowmen or Zondnautica. I do think that'll change in N4 as we see Hollowmen based lists likely to be less dominant in TJC internal balance and Spotlight changes making Repeater nets great again.

    3. I LOVE Tsyklons and I rarely play them (outside of CJC). They're just too inefficient for what your so often end up getting. Really you need to either be playing the "force opponent to spend orders to kill it dead" game or "leveraging the Visors and Pitcher". But in late N3 breaking something out of Suppression has almost never been easier given the proliferation of C+/Superjump profiles that can attack at range from weird angles and relatively few meta-threats desire early game Pitchers.

    The result is they often get cut at list building and equally often underperform on the table.

    If I want a sub 35pt 1W fast attack B4 gun there's several cheaper and arguably better options for similar SWC (ie. Reaktion, Heckler RF, Puppet RF, Spitfire Zondnautica). Which means I'm only going to choose a Tsyklon in a list where it's other advantages come to the fore. (I'm ignoring the Feurbach for this comparison, because it's never been a particularly common pick outside of a brief window when Overclock lists were in vogue).

    Which is basically a REM (+Hacker) Heavy Vanilla build with a Guided option. Which isn't exactly a "meta" archetype (well unless you're building it in CJC which, BTW, looks epic and I'm disappointed I haven't gotten onto the table).

    Tl;dr wait for N4. They have the chance to become truly awesome.
     
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  3. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I love the tsyklons aesthetics, and I play them more than I think they deserve because of that, but they still have a cost/efficiency too high. Maybe in N4 that might change with the new formula (maybe its arm cost gets down, and 360V stops beign 5 points while MSV2 is 2-4, on rems).

    I don't know what they could do in BJC, and I cannot imagine at the moment anything interesting that would make them fun and good without making them too powerful, too expensive. But I don't think FD2 would be the way, that whould make them plain better than TJC, not different. ODD is a no (seems that piece of equipment become of limited access for us now), and MSV would be bonkers (and the claims from pano/yj would bring a nerf later as with FA). Lunokhod on moiras could be a nice touch instead, with mixed fireteams where any reverend could be mixed in, or if the rules for multiple hackers in a fireteam are finally implemented in this edition (we were spoiled about their existence before n3, but never came to light).

    I've tryed them a lot in TJC, but didn't see much difference compared to when I used them in vainilla. The same expensive remotes with not so power for the cost. Paying so much for 360V and ARM3 is a big problem, and giving them FD, even if it helps, is not enough, just saves 1 movement order (or sometimes, even none if there is not a good place for that deployment). FD2 would have been another thing of course, because it opens to more good initial positioning (I have seen a lot of tables where FD1 was not enough due to cover placement). In the end, they get shadowed by TR bots, which do almost the same work for less, while for pitchers and repeaters there are other options in TJC.

    in CJC I have not used them much. Tried the FB with alguaciles, but a MB ML worked better than 2 bots, most of the time for me (again, due to cost/efficiency). But my games with them were more limited compared to TJC.

    if in N4 they get a bigger discount than other 2nd wave remotes, they might be more interesting. Also the new rules for hacking can make them more interesting too (But there are better repeater sources in BJC for that)
     
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  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Thats an Idea I actually really like the Koalas, Shotgun and HFT would provide a nice road bump to keep their biggest predator (warbands) at arms reach if you were moving them up the table, as well as a half decent price break.


    How so? The FB has more manageable range bands better active applications should it be needed, is 6 points and .5 SWC cheaper and sitting at effective BS 18 most of the time due to MML2. As well as the utility of a BS 15 pitcher out to the 32 should it be needed.
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    the FB is 1SWC cheaper! (Mobile brigada misile launcher is 2SWC, we don't discounts on weapons), even with that, the ML has a longer range for the +3, and when the FB gets better (Between 16 and 24), the ML is still 0 (not a -3), and the positioning of the other members of the FT can help to paliate that, but the long range from the FB cannot be aboided. The X-visor is almost unused in FB, so it becomes another tax instead of a help. On the other side, the higher base BS of the mobile makes it a little bit more reliable, but also, a template is more frightening for the enemy (no cover) and helps against bad movements from enemy fireteams. The second wound for only 6 points is also a big help, and the possibility of prone when things go wrong. In overall, the extra 1SWC is well spent in my opinion. The only good point of the tsyklon over the MB is the supportware, but for that, in most cases we will need to bring a hacker (usually jazz for billy) outside of fireteam (or to need extra orders to get out of LoS and get back after applying it if we want a SS hacker)

    edit: for usign the pitcher, it would be more interesting in a wildcat fireteam or a haris. Even in a MB core I think is more useful (but in there, the SWC goes out too fast), but alguacile are usually more static, and the times I've played them, the MB ML has been more reliable in deffending than the tsyklon FB
     
  6. [Ghost]

    [Ghost] Member

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    I used both FT variants with succes and pleasure. Apart from personal preference I think both have their place depending on the rest of the list, the table layout (e.g. the meta) and the mission. Due to the heavy investment of both I would not play them as throw-away piece so a doctor/engineer is always included.

    The MB has the advantage of the additional wound without going unconscious, it also has the higher BS unbuffed. It is the scarier ARO but not as versatile in active turn. I see a pattern here: if you want a damn-scary ARO piece which you place and forget about it (no supportware, no active turn order investment) the MB is the more reliable option. I had some games with a Tsyklon instead to save some points and it dropped dead with the first enemy order. With the new wildcards the required Dak can easily incorporated into the fireteam to save a slot, more important: she counts as the second MB.

    The Tsyklon can fill the role of the ML-MB quite well, it is just 1 BS down but can compensate with a later MML2 (in case it lives long enough). It has one wound less but due to remote presence the same number of wounds before total removal. Granted, being a REM and not going prone with unconsciousness doesn't help here, but we all know this is the tradeoff for being relatively cheap (especially in SWC) for being such a monster. As being said the range bands of the FB are easier to play and B2 makes it a better active turn weapon. climbing+ and MML2 also help here.

    Apart from the slighly different roles, normally I decide which one to take based on the rest of the list. As mentioned I would always bring a doctor/engineer (and be it a Tomcat which I use aggressive if not needed). Most of the time a clockmaker would be an extra investment here with the exception of TAG lists or those with a TR bot. Going with a FB-Tsyklon as semi-offensive option requires some long firelines and are therefore quite table dependent, I always crave for the spitfire option while doing that :)
    Also do not forget that the Tsyklon is 1 SWC less than the MB in a sectorial with lots of "not up to date" SWC formulas and a line guy lieutenant with SWC tax.
     
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  7. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    That's why I want a Gecko with LGL so bad. It might even make it duo well with a Tsyklon and, most importantly, would look so cool. I think it would fit in really well.
     
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  8. Freki

    Freki Well-Known Member

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    Like Ghost said for Tsyklons in CJC. If I take it's 2 and the link will move forward. If the MB option it will stay put and the link will be cheerleading all game.

    C+ is amazing in a core link it opens your deployment and your movement so much.

    One REM every TJC player started loving is the stempler FTO. Amazing kit. Sensor c+ super jump, FO, repeater for 18 pts... A real beauty this kit
     
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  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Stemplers have always been solid, admittedly I rarely run them because Pi-well exists. I think C+ will be more useful than Superjump in N4 given the falling and Cover from elevation changes.

    Equally the only reason Meteors aren't loved is because of the absurd SWC Tax. Even at 0.5 SWC they're likely to be much more common.

    Re: Tsyklons in CJC. You don't really need the Spitfire: Feurbach + Lupe covers every range band out to 32 with +3 and out to 48 with 0s. Personally I like the Spitfire, but I've been convinced it's not necessary.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Dual Combi+LGL? For 1-1.5 SWC that'd be interesting.

    The Dual LGL wouldn't make it better at Spec Fire but would make B2 Grenades to the face a thing.

    I'd expect to lose with the Panzerfausts/Blitzen or the Chain Colt.

    Also, talking Geckos again. Seriously missed the opportunity to demand dual Chain Colts to match the model.
     
  11. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I think the best loadouts would be LGL B+1 on a heavy shotgun or MULTI rifle with a regular LGL. But to make it with no new sculpts I would make a second profile on the less attractive weapon replacing the faust/blitz. Personally I would do it to the MK12 but there seems to be mixed opinions.

    But staying on topic, I basically want a good profile to pair with the Tsyklon Spitfire and I think that would be a good option. Right now they overlap too much, but giving the duo spec fire and a niche weapon like shotgun or the ammo types of MULTI would make it a better combo. I would be open to other profiles designed with the Tsyklon in mind
    Profiles designed to work well with a duo partner is a good direction IMO.
     
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  12. Tristan228

    Tristan228 Bakunin's best Morlock trainer
    Warcor

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    Maybe they'll painted green?!
    Nah, jokes aside. So far in Bakunin the Spitfire Tsyklon is overshadowed by the Spitfire Prowler (who might get revamped in N4 as well, so no chance for the Tsyklon to get any better) who's advantages over the remote are obvious. The Feuerbach Tsyklon might not have a direct contestor but if you really want to have a B2 Exp ARO then you might've already chosen the Riot Grrls Fireteam.
    So my idea would be to give both profiles Mimetism. Then I'd swap the X-Visor and Pitcher of the Feuerbach profile with Full Auto L1 and a light shotgun (or something else to cover the 8"). Given that Enhaced Reaction will stay in the hacking portfolio this remote will then be able to attack, defend and control quite well.
    In any of my armies with access to them (Bakunin, Tunguska, StarCo) I played the TR Salyut more often - about 5 times in total (actually my most played Salyut profile in Season 10 and 11).
    Back in my first year (2014-2015) playing Infinity I used the Spitfire Tsyklon quite often since I liked (and still like) the look of it and the Prowler was too expensive in 200 points games.
     
    #12 Tristan228, May 30, 2020
    Last edited: May 31, 2020
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  13. Darkinga

    Darkinga Nómada Nómada

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    Best Prowler is Combi-Flamethrower, Adhl...and now with operative better too...so pain 0.5 cap Tax for... be Nomad...
     
  14. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Definitely the profile I use the most, That being said the Prowler usually only comes out when hunting party is up (B2 ADHL is sweet), the .5 sucks but not a huge problem.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    ADHL Hellcat is gud as well.
     
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  16. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    Don't need to win the face-to-face if there is no face-to-face.
     
  17. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    I could put a tsyklon in one of my regular lists, but it would have to replace a Reaktion Zond somehow. Seems like a tall order.
     
  18. Darkinga

    Darkinga Nómada Nómada

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    Yeah is good option but, if you only want this for the adhl the best option in nomads.. for me, is the bandit. He can doing lot of things.
     
  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Generally speaking yes, but in Hunting Party the hellcat is better as it picks up a second one.
     
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  20. Darkinga

    Darkinga Nómada Nómada

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    Also intruder Adhl.
     
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