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Reinforcements feedback thread

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Koni, Aug 10, 2023.

  1. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Thus my mention of being coherent. You can have an exception to a rule, but you cannot have an exception to a definition, specially when such definition is critical... they could have said "a troop is anything that has a statline in the Army app with wounds or STR", and get done with it, but instead they use Troop in several contexts, defining it as one thing, and then claiming anything they say so is a troop, the same way "we" understood poorly that the Kriza Borac's -3 when shooting would stack with Suppresive fire back in N3 a few months after the troop's release.

    Why not? To declare an attack you don't need a weapon, since several ITS interactions (including secondary objectives) require the declaration of an attack short order. Sure, they fail automatically because they roll below 1, but they can declare the action.

    No, I just didn't bother pasting the paragraph here. You can check it if you want in the PDF, as I did, but the bottom line is that the wording is ambiguous, with the english version being like 60% to "everything must be deployed" and the Spanish version being like 70% towards "everything you deploy, be it all or part of your reinforcements group, must be inside this zone".
    And no, I'm not taking it out of my sleeve, I'm native Spanish.
     
  2. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, wrong thread.
     
    #402 Space Ranger, Dec 4, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2023
  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Reinforcements is officially dead with the groups in both stores, in my area. No one wants to play it. I’m planning on running a tournament next year and so far, every says "no thanks." They will play it for the fun of it once a while but not in a tournament.

    These are the top reasons given:
    1. It feels like I’m playing two small forces rather than one big one.
    2. I can’t play the force the way I want to. (I’m forced to take certain things to just do REF)
    3. I don’t have the figures to proxy for my force.
    4. It’s not fun.
     
  4. AlphaStrike

    AlphaStrike Active Member

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    Not interested in it in the slightest, I feel it bloats an already complicated game; the game where we have just had a massive revamp to simplify things.

    The resources used to provide this could've been put towards better balance, more streamlining and more units across the board.

    Like the above comment, I too don't believe our local shop is interested in it at all.
     
    #404 AlphaStrike, Dec 11, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2023
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Had a lovely game of Resilience Ops using Reinforcements at 350 points and house rule that Reinforcements arrives on T2.

    Once setup was done, the game flowed excellently, even if it in the end took quite some time. I can seriously recommend this combination for casual games. Arriving on T2 got rid of any gamey bullshittery and also removed the incentive nor need to count points. Reinforcements also kept the game alive for a bit longer after I got a very successful beta-strike with McMurrough.
    Also the chaos of the malfunctioning turrets was gold. We both ended up having to kill our own turrets.
     
  6. Rabble

    Rabble Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly enough Resilence Operations has been
    All my experiences with Resilence Operations (non-reinforcement) have been amazing in both feels, flow and fun. Although you're right that Resilence Operations take a bit longer to set up than standard games with all the extra HVTs, Beacons and Objectives needed... it is worth it for real.

    In the opposite all my experiences with Reinforcements have been... clunky and akward at it best, directly unfun at it worst. Even with modifications such as forced T2 as you suggest, I always have the feeling it doesn't add anything valuable to the game experience and would have prefered to play a non-reinforcement game/tournament instead of such a game. This is my personal feeling of course, but it is shared among my 'south-east of Spain' local gaming community and the local Spanish-Speaking TableTopSimulator Community as well.
     
  7. PandaBeastMode

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    At the moment, Wardrivers have AVA 1 in Ikari, which makes the non-commlink profiles impossible to play with Reinforcements mode (because Wardriver is the only commlink option).

    It's things like these that make people less and less likely to want to play with Reinforcements.. which is a shame because the game mode has potential and the new miniatures are very nice.

    Generally, the treatment of NA2 in Reinforcements has been rather poor, especially the recent removal of commlink profiles. In our gaming group, many people like to play with NA2 factions and are currently not very eager to play with Reinforcements at all because of how NA2 factions have been treated.
     
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  8. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah it's not even either, spiral got a really nice selection of new stuff to use. But druze and ikari are basically being reinforced with their own normal stuff for the most part
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    LOL it's doubly official. We have a tournament coming up in January and we are NOT doing Reinforcements.

    Edit: And a few, like me, have said they are not going to be getting the REF troops until they are widely available.
     
    #409 Space Ranger, Dec 13, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2023
  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    We just started a club league with Reinforcement (+ Resilience Operations), despite the initial feelings we have no problem with it.
     
  11. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    This was my worry, CB made reinf optional, but because it's optional it doesn't get played. It doesn't get played so people don't buy the minis, which hurts the bottom line or forces them to be added into vanilla to get the sales to come through (or forces reinf to be mandatory for ITS)
     
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think it’s because it’s optional. This would not have been a worry if:
    • The rules were fun. (Some think it’s fun but the problem is “some”).
    • More factions had figures available right away. (By January when our tournament is, the only available factions to have figures will be PanO, YJ, Nomads, and CA. We have a lot of Haqq, Nomads, some some Aleph and Ariadna, and I’m now playing Starmada. It's going to be April by the time all the new ones are out).
    • The reinforcements figures were available without reinforcements rules. (Vanilla at least would help. I would be tempted to get them if it was available without REF rules).
     
  13. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

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    Right now our local scene is mostly not playing Reinforcements games afaik, they happen occasionally as the mood strikes. We had a Reinf event a couple months ago and there was a fair amount of discussion that boiled down to “this has potential and I want to like it, but list building is weird and awkward at 250/100.”

    I suspect that some variance in commlinks or just dropping them from the requirements might pique interest. iirc at least a couple of games have happened where the players tried 300 normal vs 250/100 reinf and it went ok, which is something I want to try as well.
     
  14. Romansky

    Romansky Shadowrunner

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    Hej,
    does someone know when, how and if the reinforcement (skill?) will be added to the army builder?
    Thanks!
    And merry Xmas to whom it may apply ;)
     
  15. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    It was, quite a while go.
    You need a model with Commlink (equipment) in your main group.

    Then, tick off that little box titled "Reinforcements units" just in the top left of the window (I'm talking the browser version of the Army), just under the Type drop-down menu.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Just dumping a few reflections on where I'm hoping Reinforcements will develop now that it seems our area of Europe is one of few still giving it a chance:

    • Round 2 is where it is at! Dropping Reinforcements on your T2 feels like the perfect dynamic.
    • 100 points, not 30%. The requirements to drop Reinforcements early is very weird outside of "standard" 350 points. Consider making it equal to the Reinforcement group instead of changing in severity.
    • Please improve some Commlinks. Not all of them. (see below)
    • Specify the Drop Pod, please. Does it remain on the table? Does it block LOF? Does it block movement? Hopefully the answer is "no" to all three questions.
    • Keep the reinforcement group Private. Whether this is supremely balanced or not, this will be consistent with Hidden Deployment and Combat Jump - and a lot of people are requesting it.
    • Keep the good commlinks rare! Can't stress this enough. Commlinks that are actually good, will improve the faction in a meaningful way and needs to be handled with care. Most factions are going to be fine with +0 or +1, especially most vanilla faction. Reserve the better MODs to profiles that are otherwise considered a burden. I could only give you a list of the Yu Jing factions and JSA, so I'll not make a list here, even if it would be short. (See more below)
    • Let the Commlink join Reinforcement Fireteams as a Wildcard. Speaks for itself, really.
    • Do not give bonuses based on faction group. This is a p.s. addendum. Just because a sectorial belongs to a group of factions doesn't mean it needs the same level of help. Take the very competitive Kosmoflot; both Kosmoflot and vanilla Ariadna need little help, and the current +2 on Rokot is probably overly generous, but the other Ariadna sectorials are struggling competitively and for some even the generous +2 might not be enough.

    Here's specific commentary on Commlink profiles:
    • "Bad" vs "good" Commlinks is a balancing opportunity. Let's be honest, some factions are better than others. This is an opportunity to introduce a lighter-touch game balancing by having those factions be stuck with disappointing Commlinks. For example; restricting Bakunin to Moderators are probably perfectly fine as a soft handicap and giving Combined +0 devices is a stroke of genius, but most factions aren't blessed with Ghulam; NCA probably deserve more useful alternatives to Fusilier Combi and forcing Zhanshi on Invincible Army is downright mean.
    • Unique profiles for JSA and Ikari. JSA and Ikari are very distinct from other NA2 and deserve a lot better than a having some mercenary nobody do Commlink work for them! This is also an opportunity to make them even more distinct from each other; Ikari, the rabble they are, are probably fine with a Keisotsu running this role, while JSA will probably entrust these devices to their political enforcement officers, the Kempeitai.
    • Replace Wardriver with Druze etc. It's not a profile anyone wants, please consider giving NA2 thematic Commlinks with values appropriate to the faction; Druze are a top candidate and the generic profiles such as Ghulam were fine - thematic, even!
    • Low-body-count factions need more appropriate MODs. We have some elite factions, factions designed to be played with fewer than 15 units. Outside of Steel Phalanx, these few factions are struggling a little bit. Please consider a different Commlink modifier that doesn't promote horde-style play (see below)
    • 2-Haris factions need higher MODs more than most. From memory, these are Qapu Kalkhi, Imperial Service, and Morats. These factions struggle to use their primary designed advantage. Please consider making these factions a priority in getting Commlinks with +2 or higher MODs, if only so they can actually make use of their primary advantage!
    • Stronger Commlinks can make "bad" profiles good! The game has a few units that are both disliked by the community and described as highly competent leaders; Sun Tze is probably the most obvious example here. Consider adding a little bit of spice to these profiles by giving them unique Commlinks.
    A few spicy commlink MOD ideas:
    • Commlink (+50 pts). Allows between 100 and 150 points allocated to the Reinforcement Group. More appropriate for low-body factions like Military Orders, Invincible Army or Tunguska
    • Commlink (Total). This unit's commlink MOD also applies to regular lists that don't use Reinforcement rules.
    • Commlink (<Faction>). Allows Reinforcement units, and Fireteams, to be recruited into the main group. Some leaders have connections that the rank and file Lieutenants don't.
    • Commlink (Spy). Makes the opponent's Reinforcement Group Open Information, while keeping your own Private.
    • Commlink (On My Mark). Dropping Reinforcements is optional regardless of losses and turn count. Turn 3 dropping has proven to be a great tactical benefit that essentially wrecks the game balance. Now we tie this ability to the Commlink unit's survival and make it available to only a few specific units (probably only a couple of named characters).
    • Commlink (Smoke). Optional. Centres a circular smoke template on the Drop Pod for one turn.
    • Commlink (Repeater). Obligatory. The drop pod is equipped with a Repeater.
    • Commlink (F-13 Turret). Adds an F-13 Turret to the Reinforcement group.
    • Commlink (Gravity Drive). Centres a circular template that is a Zero-G and Saturation Zone on the Drop Pod.
     
    #416 Mahtamori, Dec 30, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2023
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    To expand a bit on what I mean with "good" and "bad" profiles;

    A "bad" profile is a profile which is generally speaking not taken in lists. We have had confirmation from CB that they are aware that a lot of basic combi line infantry units are not taken, which I will point out is by their own design. Forcing us to take these profiles isn't going to make the experience be any good, and since these types of units are not at all created equally, it doesn't provide good game balance.
    (If you want to encourage us to use these basic profiles, I suggest that you make fewer profiles like Diggers, lower the amount of direct templates by more than a little bit, and reconsider how much a combi rifle is actually worth)

    So to make an example of a good use of a "bad" profile; Thorakitai Combi in Steel Phalanx. This is, I think, not controversial to say a unit you don't want in your list. Steel Phalanx is a faction which is on a roll lately, as people are discovering how possible it is to win a game by using Eclipse Grenades by removing from the equation the primary reason for losing them; your opponent.

    For factions which are not doing so well, such as US Ariadna Ranger Force, you need to assign the Commlink, not to a unit and profile they don't want in their lists, but to a unit with a profile they do want in their list. With very little experience with USARF I can not give the perfect example of where to put a device like this.
    SWC weapons and lieutenant profiles are probably good candidates, so that there's fewer mandatory profiles and leaving more freedom for adjustments. Just not the Unknown Ranger, he's so heavily incentivized already.

    When I mention essentially reviving "bad" units, I mean units like Sun Tze, who is so overpriced that you could drop him 10 points and people still wouldn't take him, or Qiang Gao, who's main problem is that he's the same price as one of the wildcards that also happens to be better. Those two, and maybe DeFersen as well as Saladin, would be my primary candidates for spicier MODs. Capsaicin amount adjusted according to faction.
     
    #417 Mahtamori, Dec 30, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2023
  18. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Just the fact you had to write all that tells me something is wrong lol.
     
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  19. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Please not. While on the first glance it looks fun. It is way too much options to remember in a game where we have already too much options on some profiles (a lot of them not even used).

    CB said they will show up with updated RF rules "in a few weeks" so I keep calm and then we see, what they get from all the feedback.
     
  20. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    That would be great!
     
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