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Reinforcements as a purchase option...

Discussion in 'News' started by Morituri, Jan 17, 2024.

  1. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    If I were to make wishes?

    CB, slow down, please.

    Indeed, as it was said above, there are heaps of profiles in existence who lack models. Either the models were discontinued, or have never, ever existed. Covering that should give you stuff to release for a long time. No need to swamp us in new units and new profiles.

    Use that time to re-think your release strategy, and the direction you want the game to go into. Maybe plan for a new edition. Because, hey, I get that re-balancing it all while the current edition is still going would be a problem.

    It wouldn't be a bad idea to prune the armies a bit. Find out redundant profiles and redundant units, and simply let them go. It can be justified in fluff as reforming / disbanding an unit, such thing is not unknown IRL.
    It would be prudent, however, to offer the people who have bought the models (if there were models) a way out of the "I paid for the miniatures and they are useless junk now" problem / mindset I keep seeing on the forum (and which I've feld myself, when N2->N3 transition invalidated my quintet of Azra'il). A rather simple solution there, if one requiring a little bit of thought: give official guidelines for every so orphaned miniature to "count as", preferably in the same sectorial, or - at least - same general faction. If, say, one day Acontaciemento Regulars get replaced by Fusiliers, suggest to use Accontaciemento Regulars as Fusiliers.

    I know, wishful thinking.​
     
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  2. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    I'd add that there is also a lot of kinda similar units as well. Like, there's an infiltrator, and then there's a similar infiltrator but cheaper and with forward deployment. Or he just shoots on 12, or one time camo etc. They just feel... unnecessary

    Or throw them all along with profiles into an NAA generic Merc company so anyone can roleplay space hobos fighting with obsolete tech and flexing their "back in mah day..." collection
     
    #82 Lucian, Feb 15, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2024
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  3. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    That's a very bad idea.
    Because it either increases the profile / unit bloat (if the unit / profile gets replaced) or merely shifts it around (moving the units into a "generic" NA2. Note: there is no such thing as "generic NA2").

    Not even starting on the topic of balance - or lack thereof - of such a "generic NA2."

    Let things have an end.
    With the aftercare for people owning the models in the form of telling them to, from now on, use these models as something - specific! - else. So, to continue my Acontaciemento Regulars example: well, you can't use them as Acon Regulars anymore (for the regiment has been - in fluff - disbanded), but they can be now used as Fusiliers in SAA (especially should there be SAA-specific profiles!). Therefore, you no longer own a bunch of discontinued, obsolete minis you can't field anymore - you own alternate sculpts for a different unit.
    Alternate sculpts, which are - by the way - old-gen and no longer available new.

    And while infinity is proxy-friendly, it would still have the benefit of being official guidelines. No, these are not Fusilier proxy models - they are officially alternate sculpts. 100% official, CB-approved, tournament-legit...
     
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  4. tacos

    tacos Well-Known Member

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    I'll just reiterate this again - I think the issue of profile/unit bloat and redundancy is less an issue of too much, but more an issue of CB not being willing to explore more out there design spaces.

    Take the recent releases over the last few years - units like Cenobites, Zellenkriegers, Korsans, Hwarangs, Hoplites - these are all 'been there done that' units in terms of design (there are way more). Hoplites are just remixed Bronzes - they even both have defensive CC stats. Cenobites and Hawarangs are just another set of very similar HI warbands ala the Teuton and Tanko, just with varying levels of optimization. Korsans and Zellenkriegers are just one of the few very similar warbands that are currently overloading the game (the reinfor update was esp bad for introducing a ton of very redundant warbands).

    But it's not like we haven't seen legitimately unique and interesting units released as well - the Sunduqbut and Bokhtar are respectively unique takes on powerful gunfighters with a deployment skill - you can't really find any analogous units. The Stigmata is a super interesting unit with it's mix of TAG durability, hacking skills, close assault tools, and ok long range shooting. Roadbots, while undeniably very very strong, are an interesting take on close assault and bike units.

    What the game doesn't need is another NBW smoke toting impet irreg warband, or another frenzy HI with stealth and MA2 - we've already got a shit ton of those. But if CB is willing to play around with the design of new releases, and - more importantly - willing to rework old units and profiles to occupy more interesting and niche design spaces, I think things could be fine. Infinity has a ton of design space left in it, it just needs to be explored
     
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  5. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    It's that, too, but it's also too much. It's also power creep and the pollution by KS-gated units and profiles. It's also thematically unrelated merc units being a staple in many factions.

    The issue is multifaceted and there seems to be no easy solution other than to keep laying the tracks in front of the train and hoping people put up with it. CB is forced to release new stuff, we all understand that, but they could invest more into the maintenance of the rules.

    Prune merc choices, at least in vanilla (which are still the strongest factions anyway), delete some loadouts that are not represented by miniatures, possibly with the help of community feedback to not punch holes into important synergies. Introduce fewer extraneous profiles like diggers, triphammers and beast hunters and design those miniatures as proxies for existing profiles instead.
     
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  6. tacos

    tacos Well-Known Member

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    Frankly I don't care as much about if a unit/profile has a miniature. Sure it's nice to not have to proxy a lot of stuff, but ehhh, that's in part why the loose proxy rules exist. It would be nice to have a lot of gaps filled, but on a personal level, I'm not too fussy.

    As for the proliferation of mercs, I'm kinda of a mixed opinion? I think people exaggerate both how strong they are, and how common they are - but I do think it's kinda naff to have factions reliant on specific merc profiles (most commonly MBHs, BH and Diggers) to fill in gaps. For example, it's kinda shitty as to how reliant vPanO is on BHs and MBHs to fill the close assault role because their existing close assault tools are either extremely mediocre (Shona, Uma, Liang), or have significant weaknesses that shuts them out in certain situations (e.g., a Montesa Knight vs a comprehensive DZ repeater net/T0 repeater net).
     
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  7. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    I'm not too worried about miniature representation either, but it could be a reasonable starting point for trimming some of the fat.

    As for how strong and common mercs are, here is what I as a (mostly) Vanilla YJ player see going on:

    - Libertos and beasthunters are non-negotiable for most if not all lists because they are just that good/efficient.
    - MBH are very prevalent because its our only bike choice that also happens to be able to Duo
    - Samsa introduced an infiltrating plasma template into the faction, utterly unique
    - Lunah is unrivaled in her role, being not only a strong sniper but also one of the very few sources of viral ammo, with the other two being Aida Swanson and Taowu, both again mercs.
    - Even ignoring Lunah, Knauf outclasses Daoying, Haidao, Sunny V2, Bao and Hundun snipers in active turn duty due to stacked vis mods and +1B at the same price point
    - Armand infringes on the territory of the iconic, bespoke ARO piece that is the YanHuo ML while being cheaper
    - Monstruckers outclass Mech-Engineers in every way except being irregular, but their kit more than makes up for that while being 3 points cheaper.
    - ABH outclass Zhanshi as order monkeys
    - TaoWu only source of counterintelligence in a faction that is 1/3 special agents.

    So we can observe several distict roles and design spaces occupied if not dominated by mercs.

    And then we have choices like Hawkwood, Wild Bill, Krakots and Cube Jaegers that are just there to take up space in Army.

    Taking all of that away and awarding some of that design space to existing underperforming units instead would not only help internal faction balance, but also level the playing field of vanilla vs. sectorials to some extent.

    - Give viral ammo to Zhanying and/or Jujaks. They already use breaker ammo, so that could be a natural yet meaningful upgrade.
    - Give drop bears to Kanren to increase their mid-board presence, maybe counterintelligence for utility
    - If you absolutely want a plasma rifle in YJ, give it to Sunny V2 so he has a reason to exist

    So much could be done that way to strengthen faction identity and balance if done with care.
     
    #87 Knauf, Feb 15, 2024
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2024
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  8. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    lol I obviously don't know PanO well.


    I can agree about mercs in Vanilla. To show how much there is I’ve shown off YJ lists that had only a single YJ troop in it that was actually not a bad list! Though, some of them are unfortunately vital to many armies. YJ would be hurt if it wasn’t for some of them.

    I would like to see them moved to NA2. Take one of the exiting NA2, or create a new one, and make it the super merc faction maybe. Give them the bulk of mercenaries. Almost the “Vanilla of NA2”. Then you have the sub factions under it.

    Maybe a different topic but I thought it was a missed opportunity to create a Japanese Mercenaries with REF. They of course would be in the JSA but could have also been in any of the other NA2.

    Redundancy might suck for the game but it’s part of the story. I mean how can you have a hacker heavy faction with a lot of hackers and not be a bit redundant? Or an HI faction that has HI that are only slightly different from each other?
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    This is an impossible position. On the one hand, they should publicitize more that you need few models to play... but on the other side, they literally base their business model onto selling models, so it's contrary to their interests for people to buy, for example, 30-35 models to play with all factions by proxying.

    Dunno, I avoid the shorts section like the plague. I can tell you that, however, in several Studio Update they talk about Warcrow, so the media content for warcrow has more inputs than Infinity, unless we consider minutes, in which case... I don't even bother measuring. Anyways, I have no interest in Warcrow whatsoever, beyond it taking away development time for Infinity.

    Make a frigging necromunda/Edge of Reality/whatever version of Infinity without the nightmarish snowballing of the campaign mode. With new models for characters, "compatible" with the RPG.
    Heck, make the battle mats that come with the scenery sets have an hexagonal print on the back so people can use it to play the RPG using hexagons, and release the reinforcements boxes as "the new way to start playing Infinity" with a few skills, no pre-measure required, 6 models per side and ranges in hex slots instead of inches/cm, playable in a 3x2 battlemat with a single set of scenery, and think better of the units in the "starter packs", for example Marspiders don't need their own profile because of reasons, they can be just the Tomcats that don't DA into the table, having 0g and climbing plus instead...

    I think the main problem was casting time for the Siocast models. If they had released all the 6man boxes two per month in 3-4 months, and then the siocast boxes they would have more clog up of the siocast machines when getting even closer to Warcrow's release.
    If only they did learn from their mistakes... but again it took 6+ months to change a single line (commlink points and SWC cost) with a dubious justification ("we had it costed as if reinforcements would face regular lists" so they forgot that by adding a "only RvsR is allowed" they should have reviewed some of the rest of the page-length rules?)

    Specially since new players get swamped by the amount of redundant profiles.

    Only, the problems attacking the potential popularity of the game mode were shared on august barely 2 weeks after the rules & profiles release. It took months to get a single answer in the thread from Koni, and even more months until, as usual, changes were made in a redundant way (from making it really hard to see those units in the table, to "hey, since turn 1 now, and you know, you can use them in an extra game mode").
    Who would think that not limiting people's choices to all or nothing would lead to choices that benefit the company...

    I think several examples from other games were provided in this thread already, or in the reinforcements feedback one. Can't guarantee they were not pruned, however.
    Also, I think Ramper just did so by adding the Don Peyote to Acheron's Fall after confirming it was not in the cards before starting the KS...

    So? The job is neither to ignore criticism nor to listen to all of it, it's called taking decisions for a reason. Claiming you are unable to because half your counsel is one thing and the other half is the opposite does not mean you have bad counsel, it means you are not the leader you think you are.
     
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  10. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    As a tiny quibble, only the 1st - 3rd Regulares regiments are no longer on the rolls. After their sacrifices and annihilation during the 1st Paradiso Offensive, the Hexahedron made the decision to leave their regiments and number as tribute. Now the Regulares regiments begin their numbering with the 4th Acontecimento Regulares.
     
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  11. Lucian

    Lucian Catgirl Nation

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    Heh. Defiance, anyone? I should try playing skirmish battle with Defiance troop profiles on aristeia board someday...
     
  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I would argue that especially Lunah but also TaoWun are mercenaries only because of fluff reason, for all other terms and purposes they are proper Yu Jing units.
     
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  13. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think some of the extreme examples of this kind of design probably need points increases.
     
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  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Fair enough, but what if they were proper (read "exclusive") ISS units instead, as their fluff suggests? That would give that sectorial some much needed appeal relative to vanilla YJ and, at the same time, declutter vanilla YJ and open the field for other sniper units that are currently largely outclassed. If you design vanilla around roster breadth, you'd expect to be able to make use of it and not have a clear best-in-slot solution for certain roles.
     
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  15. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I think "decluttering" Generic lists is a frequent request, I am not sure on the backlash if this happens, but it is not an unreasonable request.
     
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  16. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    For me? Pretty final.

    I've been tired of the special snowflake cries since N2. Just get rid of vanilla completely and be done with it then. Then we can quickly get into every other game churn to keep the game fresh and exciting for that sliver of the player base.
     
  17. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

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    I've just pulled an example out of thin air :) Didn't remeber that 1st to 3rd Accontaciemento Regulars were no more.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    For what it is worth, I think Beasthunter is an example of a well executed mercenary design due to the fact that they have a unique profile. Beasthunters are also not so universally good that you see them everywhere; it is mainly in Yu Jing you'll see them where they fill a niche using the faction unique profile that is also part of the faction's traditional style.

    Diggers could be such a thing as well, if they were selectively available where they make sense.

    Further, addressing no one in particular, having several units with minor variations in different factions is fine, in my opinion. Teuton are fine and thematic to MO, Tanko are fine and thematic to JSA, Hwarang are fine and thematic to YJ, and Cenobites are... Um... Let's settle for "a weird design choice" and move on.
    It is less good if the variation is in the same faction. E.g. During N3 it felt unmotivated having Zhanshi, Keisotsu and Celestial Guard in the same faction and it still feels like the overlap of Zhanshi and CG is poorly motivated.
     
  19. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Also, doing this is practically a job in itself. Companies have marketing teams do nothing but this. It's a full time job. CB and their 50 or less people just don't have the resources to do it. Well, do it right.

    Sorry to get a bit off-topic.
     
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  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's all well and good in theory, but everyone was saying Reinforcements wouldn't be popular, and then Reinforcements wasn't popular. Someone at CB cocked that one up.
     
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