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Reactive CHA

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by daboarder, Apr 27, 2018.

  1. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    [​IMG] Caledonia
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo, Forward Observer) 2 Submachine guns, D.E.P., D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo, Forward Observer) 2 Submachine guns, D.E.P., D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
    [​IMG] SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo) Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] SCOT (1st Battalion) (Fireteam: Duo) Missile Launcher / Assault Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] 112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    4.5 SWC | 300 Points

    So the beauty of this is that you can put your opponent in a bind, I kept finding late last year that my opponents would typically take first turn even in 2nd turn favoured missions against my CHA out of fear of what the horde could do if given the chance to act first unmolested.

    With this list I can typically get what I want, either forcing my opponent to play first by winning the Lt roll and electing to make them deploy first on an unfavorable side, Or buy them choosing first turn if they win the Lt roll and take the usual stance vs CHA.
    This means that the SG can then start linked forcing the opponent to fight through them, before I flip the link to the grey and go ham with an as yet untouched order pool.

    Conversely on the rare occassions where I have to go first or where the opponent pre-empitvely kills the grey there is enough hitting power in the rest of the list to take the fight to the opponent still.
     
    #1 daboarder, Apr 27, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2018
    Hecaton and Krofna like this.
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's a good counterplay for someone denying you first turn.
     
  3. Beodren

    Beodren Well-Known Member

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    I like this list a lot, but I would like to ask you one question:

    How would you feel about dropping one galwegian in favor of having two camoed missile launchers? With that you technically sacrifice chance of forming scots guard core, but shell game would be ridiculous, and camo markers would eat up even more orders on your enemy starting turn.

    I am certainly less experienced and I LOVE Scots Guard links, so i just wonder about your perspective. Of course, lack of +1 burst on ML is a bit of pain, but it seems Grey HMG is still your main link.
     
  4. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    1) you cant link camo SG missile launchers, here I have 2 B2 MLs that are BS15. And with SS2 they actually also act as a counter play vs people that try and overspam MSV vs your camo as they are strong without relying on to hit modifiers.
    2) 2 Camo range threats is my other list, but it rocks caterans as they are mobile hunters. on the whole the other list focuses more on going first as the caterans really want to kill threats before they act as ARO pieces
     
  5. Beodren

    Beodren Well-Known Member

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    Copy that, I see the reason now. Thank you for explaining!
     
  6. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    For an example of what im talking about. This is the active variant.

    [​IMG] Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] ISOBEL McGREGOR T2 Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]5 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] 112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] TRAKTOR MUL Katyusha MRL / Electric Pulse. (1 | 11)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    5 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  7. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    I like the lists a lot. Both of them.
    Regarding the secound list, though, may I ask the quaestion: Why Wallace?
    He is an obvious Lt and I just don't see his value added.
     
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Becaise hes wip15
    Nwi
    A bruiser in and of himself. Makes the galwegians the warcor and the caterans regular and gives me a free coordinated order every turn.

    Hes not actually hard to keep alive and its a hard task to justify not taking him in CHA.

    If your worried about him gettin assasinated read my tactica at the top of the forum.
     
    Hecaton and Káosz Brigodéros like this.
  9. Beodren

    Beodren Well-Known Member

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    I gave it some thoughts., especially when you shown us second list. I may be slightly skewered meta wise due to local TOs insisting on time limit per turn (and I found 14 orders max I can consider useful) but!

    I agree with Scotsguard ML as wonderful ARO option, that counters pesky smoke trick and can potentially ruin even a tag day. Especially when supported by WIP 16 flashpulses sported by FO members of the team.
    Still, when I saw your second list, with two Cateran hunters I came up with this little idea:


    [​IMG] Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]6 [​IMG]5
    [​IMG] S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] 112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)

    3.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    From my personal experience, which may not be as MSV rich, I know Camo markers always consume one more order from your enemy, than normal unit would. While challenging BS15 B2 ML is never easy, TO Sniper in cover tends to ruin my Scots Guards day.

    With that in mind I suggest a list with much heavier midfield presence (5 infiltrating Camo markers) and two cateran lurking in the background. Anyone trying to push forward into the midfield will have a doubtful pleasure o meeting CRAP SAS, Uxia and past that Galwegian Chain Rifles would he try something funny with infiltrators of his own.

    This list contains two potential core links, one if form of Galwegians, if there is a need to truly obliterate some heavy target with burst 5 berserk attack, AP HMG for flushing out long Range defenders. Two Caterans to hunt for enemy vulnerable units, and Enough SAS to retake objectives and buy time. I think It should nicely fill the niche for second turn list.
     
  10. mightymuffin

    mightymuffin Well-Known Member

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    Wish you could run five Galwegians as a core link, but unfortunately, you need Wallace actually in the fireteam to compose it.

    Back to the subject of reactive CHA, my technique is a core fireteam with 3 to 5 big guns, normally MLs, but have used HMGs as well.
    Alternatively, camo’d MLs mixed with caterans to try and confuse your opponent.
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Personally I hate this, I think its just about one of the silliest ways to deal with the issue of time.
    Typically I'll find in games that Deployment takes up about a 3rd of the game, turn 1 for both players another 3rd and turns 2 and 3 are relatively quick as pieces move opening gaps and die.

    I once had a tournie where they put a 1.5 hour hard cap on the time for 300 pts ITS. This mostly resulted in me and the player who came 2nd (I cam 3rd) overall both designing lists that aimed to gut our opponents turn 1 then score. Most games resulted in our opponents having 4-5 orders max for turns 2 and 3 if not tabled turn 2 because that was the best way for us to play within time. needless to say our opponents did not appreciate this.
     
  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    in terms of the list, Its actually been working really well, even games where I lose the MLs in the first 1 or 2 orders the list has not been significantly slowed down with the CRAPs acting as good additional roadblocks to prevent strikes on the rest of my lines. then swinging to the grey to hammer the opponent once they have opened up gaps has proved to be very effective.
     
  13. Beodren

    Beodren Well-Known Member

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    I am glad to hear that! I had some success with a Scots Guard link, but it wasn't precisely the centerpiece of defensive. I certainly see how CRAPs are the backbone of reactive turn and slowing your opponent down. (Main reason I went for more SAS present in the midfield. As soon as they run into first CRAP SAS they are suddenly far more wary of each camo marker in the midfield. It is just my personal approach that if I am going second, I want to have a lot of camo on the table, just to force my enemy to use up his orders with less actual results.
    Still as noted our experience differs as my tournaments tend to have a hard cap placed not on game but on turn. With twenty or so minutes to play a single turn twenty orders are hard to be used to the full extent.

    Woops! Shows how much I play Galwegians! (I am the type of Scot player that takes McMurder & Uxia and feeds them with orders on turn one & two) Still, all we need here is a minor fix!:

    [​IMG] Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]5 [​IMG]4
    [​IMG] S.A.S. Chain Rifle, Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 22)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] 112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)

    3.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Now Wallace is with his friends, ready to link up and berserk all the way to the soft middle part of enemy TAG, if there is need for that.
     
  14. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    If your defending wallace its usually better to put him in the vol link then surround him with unlinked guards. Forces the opponent to fight the guards and leave wallace linked or fight wallaces link bonuses then have to deal with his guards still. Something that can rarely be done before you get a chance to strike back.

    In terms of aro. Caterans are fine for mid to late game but early game there are too many pieces on the board able to burn them down regardless of their camo mod because burst 1 only goes so far.

    Furthermore by acting as early game defensive pieces you lose their surprise shot. Its ok if you try for first lose it and have to accept they will die slowing down. But for a dedicated reactive list the SG offer more and their strengths are harder for the opponent to nullify via tactics or choice of attack piece in the way the caterans are.
     
  15. Beodren

    Beodren Well-Known Member

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    My train of thought here was: that I can lose one cateran in defiant defense on turn one, since I have two of them, second one may meanwhile lay in wait. Most of the delaying effort would likely happen in the midfield, where CRAP and FOs would slow the enemy down and deny them juiciest positions in the midfield. That should let me open my turn one with my most dangerous toys (Grey/Wallace/Uxia) in relatively nice spot, allowing potentially smoother counter attack.

    I also might have had bad time with YJ heavy camo infantry with spitfires happily being a direct counter to my SG link or Squalo happily testing how many times I can roll under 12 and Cutter reminding me if he can shoot me, he will outshoot me.

    As for Wallace hiding in other link: I read the tactic and found it both smart hard to beat. I guess both potential fireteams could end up in same order pool, but then, they would end up competing for "fuel" to cause damage in retaliation turn. Still strength of SG is something I do appreciate and by no means I disagree with your concept. I merely want to offer alternative take for potential readers.
     
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Id expect both cats to die, and 1 long range ARO isnt enough for me, I also dont really consider SASFOs as reactive peices as I consider them always mission critical given they are camo specialists. im not gonna drop them willingingly to be killed, the cateran/SG is attack or defense and not scoring.

    In terms of what kills your SG, they arent so much expected to live as they are expected to force hard choices. spending orders moving to fight at favourable range bands, risking spec fires against High PH SS2 ARM3 troops (Who should be spread) or accepting that the cutter may just eat that ML hit and have its plans ruined.
    But they arent teh toughest ARO in the game, thats not their point, they are however damn good and disposable ARO pieces. they'll suck 2-3 orders minimum, and not without serious risks on the opponents part (9s at B2 with the potential to do 6 wounds is still a risk)

    As to wallace, I wouldnt link him nor the gals, id rather have the free orders spread across both pools and the free coord. the link is really only defensive but linking wallace in an aggresive link is a bad play not only for the lost resources mentioned above but also for the added risk of putting your Lt into a front line link
     
  17. Stekei

    Stekei New Member

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    I will face a tournament with similiar time rules and I must admit I am slightly overchallenged with the timeframe considering the kind of CHA I normally play. Do you have any advice on how to build such a smash-then-score army? Becuase I think I want a backup plan if I am not able to play my regular army in time at the tournament.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Its more about how you use them, For the specific list I ran it was what is above in the thread as my "Active list"
    In terms of how it worked, it was more about playing very aggressively, taking first turn, killing sa much as I could wiht the caterans and Grey before rushing the backline and murdering what else I could get to wiht Uxia.

    It led to very unpleasent games for my opponents who often have only 7 or less orders by the time they got to their turn but i was just trying to play withing the constraints given.

    If you want an example of another CHA list that would to this very well heres another way to look at lists.
    [​IMG] Caledonian Highlander Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] WALLACE Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    [​IMG] S.A.S. (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 24)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]4 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER GREY T2 Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 33)
    [​IMG] ISOBEL McGREGOR T2 Rifle, Flash Pulse, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] CATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    [​IMG] HIGHLANDER Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 6)
    4 SWC | 298 Points
    Open in Infinity Army



    The idea behind this concept is to put 10 orders into a Grey AP HMG to clear the AROs off the opponents flank. Then flip links to the Second Grey+vol core and rush the opponents back field with another 9 orders on a BS16 B4 T2 rifle thats packing LSGs and smoke.
    Best of all that second link then has two High BS B2 T2 rifles at their DZ.

    Ive never had a chance to play this concept yet, but I looked at it for a bit.
    List itself could probably use a tweak since its been a while since I wrote it
     
  19. Stekei

    Stekei New Member

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    Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will find an aggressive list as a second option for the tournament now.