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Re-entering camouflage & taking AROs in the same order

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by RobertShepherd, Jan 7, 2020.

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  1. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    This came up in a game yesterday:

    A clipsos is in ZOC but not LOF of a ghazi. It declares an entire order to re-enter the thermoptic camouflage state.

    The ghazi AROs with a jammer and hits.

    Does the clipsos end the order in a marker state?

    (We played it as yes, assuming that the clipsos would re-enter TO Camo at the conclusion of the order, after the BTS roll against the jammer was made, but wanted to check since it's not hugely clear)
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    We know from lots of previous conversations and the rules that effects are applied simultaneously during step 8. Effects (not 9. Conclusion).

    The only way the cancellation would work is by imposing an order of operations where it goes:
    8.A. Enter Camouflaged state
    8.B. Apply effects of successful hit

    This order of operations does not exist, therefore the Clipsos isn't in the Camouflaged state prior to receiving the successful hit, so there's nothing to cancel.

    Tl;dr Clipsos ends as an Isolated Camouflaged and Hiding Marker.
     
  3. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Actually in this case ended the order as a non-isolated camoflaged and hiding marker, because it passed two BTS rolls against jammers, then an active turn helot LRL discover-shot a libertos to death from 36", then the clipsos bailed through a building, then five models failed their discover rolls against it, then it killed my liuetenant, incidentally surviving a full volley from a TR bot in a good range band when it was out of cover.

    But, good to know we played the camo-jammer interaction correctly.
     
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  4. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Again something new I learned. I always played it that the force ARM or BTS check does reveal the model again. But I can follow your argument about the conclusion of the order.
    This has interesting implications. I could i.e. recamo a 2W model, taking a wound, but ending in marker state?
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, though it isn't the loss of wounds that removes camo as such, it's making the ARM/BTS roll itself. Typically a model won't suffer most such effects without either a) triggering the source in the previous order or b) failing re-camo due to LOF to enemy Trooper or Camo Marker, but it is possible with things like MadTraps, DropBears or Koalas (but not typically mines, because the mines' camouflage marker will prevent re-camo).
     
  6. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I like to reveal my TO troopers when my opponent uses the last order to re-camo
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That'll cause the re-camo to fail entirely, so no problems there :P
     
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  8. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    The fun part about this one is, if your trooper is Isolated and in a camo marker, your engineers can't remove the status from it since they can never get base to base with the trooper in question. So don't get yourself isolated in camo if you plan on using that model for any more of that active turn.
     
  9. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    Why is that the case? Because you're not allow to re-camo in LoF? But what comes first, the re-camo order or the reveal of the TO trooper? Or is it again resolved simultaniously?
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Step 3 - Alice (a camo trooper) declares recamo
    Step 4 - Bob (a TO trooper) declares ARO
    Steps 5 & 6 don't happen due Entire Order declaration.
    Step 7 - Alice's recamo fails because there's a Trooper in LOF. Bob's ARO gets resolved.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Discover doesn't require an enemy Marker, it can be declared against friendly Markers.
     
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  12. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Note that this interaction is specifically called out in an example on the Camo page:

     
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  13. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I don't think this will be the case, as you deploy a Mine in BtB, so you end up having a Camouflage Marker in BtB. If, however, rules specifically mean that you can't enter BtB with a Camouflage Marker, then my point is moot.
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Funnily enough:

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflaged
    "Troopers cannot enter base to base contact with a Camouflage Marker."
     
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  15. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Yeah, I know, that's why I made that comment. Didn't you see my emphasis on *entering* BtB with a Camo token? As in, opposed to starting with one in BtB?
     
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  16. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Now reconcile that quote with the fact that you can move through friendly camo markers.
    Can a trooper move through allied Markers like Camouflage, TO Camouflage and IMP Markers, or his own Deployable Equipment and Deployable Weapons?
    Yes, if the trooper’s Silhouette Attribute is equal or greater.

    About the only thing left is that you can’t enter base contact unless it’s friendly.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I interpret the FAQ together with the rules as meaning that you don't enter base contact when moving through camo markers.
     
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  18. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    Wouldn't it be easier to just treat it as "Troopers cannot enter base to base contact with Camouflage and Hiding Markers that don't belong to their army list"? Otherwise it's really weird, as I cannot imagine how can you move through your own Camouflage Marker without entering BtB in a narrow corridor where only one S2 could walk.
    Maybe @ijw knows what was the intent with this?
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's a rules-technicality. If you allow troopers to enter base contact with camouflage markers, you also need to answer the question "doesn't this reveal them?"

    A camouflaged trooper is revealed if it enters base contact with a model. Note the lack of alignment specificity here - and also the funny/weird interaction with non-model entities like when a Crocman in TO Camouflaged state enters Base to Base contact with a Cybermine. It would seem that for moving through friendly troopers, entering base contact doesn't happen when markers are involved in order to maintain consistency while allowing markers to function more as intended.
     
  20. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

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    I agree, it's really weird and gets more weirder the more you try to fix it
     
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