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"Project 28" - Stopping the Caledonian Behemoth

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Good morning commanders.

    For those of you who don't know what the title of the thread is about, it's a discussion of the "Project 28" Caledonian Army which recently won the Old Dominion Disagreement with 30 OP, breaking all 3 opponents armies.

    This was the brainchild of Eric Johnson "BMinusCPlus" who is, obviously, an outstanding Infinity player and a highly skilled opponent under any circumstances.

    The "Project 28" list and the Old Dominion Disagreement win are discussed with an interview Eric gave to the White Noise Podcast crew, which you can find here:
    https://directory.libsyn.com/episod...FSQUS_DPJHXGC0GVSV24A5y4YGII8PgayUqYiZ8nrP7Ek

    Here's the list in question:

    Caledon'tians
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Light Shotgun, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    HIGHLANDER GREY Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 29)
    VOLUNTEER Light Shotgun, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    GROUP 3[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    HIGHLANDER GREY AP HMG, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
    VOLUNTEER Paramedic (Medikit) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    VOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
    UXÍA McNEILL (Covert Action) (CH: Limited Camouflage, Superior Infiltration, Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / 2 Assault Pistols, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
    VOLUNTEER Lieutenant Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    VOLUNTEER Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 8)
    4 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    Now, a great many people have raised questions around the "sportsmanship" of such a list and I think it's important to note that this was played fully WYSIWYG and fully painted (to the extent of clearly marked Paramedics and colour coded order groups). Every round was finished under time and the "Infinity spirit" of the player was never in question.

    And this list also raises interesting questions about the legitimacy of 3+ Order Group lists in ITS events generally, and "Availability Total" as a feature in Infinity.

    But that's not what I want to talk about.

    I want to talk about how we could stop this if it landed on the table opposite us.

    CAN we build lists which are prepared to deal with THIS threat, AND also manage the other things which a Tournament list needs to be able to manage (Camo spam, TAG, Infiltrators, Alpha Strikers in general, Warbands etc.).

    I have some thoughts of my own, but I'll hold off on those and let a conversation develop first because I don't want to guide initial responses.
     
    zapp likes this.
  2. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member
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    A friend of mine has been talking about grunt spam looking at about 26 orders. I threw together a 20 order acon list with 12 minelayers. It's an interesting exercise and we wanted to examine how it would fare. Will report back with results.
     
  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Honestly if you can go first and assassinate all 3 highlander greys uxia isnt going to be able to be the solo attack piece.


    But the list has huge board presence, defensively all you can do is hope mines and visual mods can carry you through. A full potential 5 man in each group is just really hard to chew.
     
  4. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    You deal with that list how you deal with any other order spam lists. You have got to kill those Highlander Greys and Paramedics since those are the key units for that list. And with so many units on the table its going to be very hard for him to avoid templates falling on multiple units. if hes got a link, spread it with templates, get a shotgun template on it, etc.
     
  5. cazboab

    cazboab O12 prisoner 627

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    Disclaimer: Sunday is drinking day for me, this might make more sense to me than it does to you ATM...

    So I've played both sides of the coin here, and my take on it is that without the Greys the volunteers will be irritating, but not really a threat if you stay back at the 24+ range with HMGs and maybe a Swiss miss, or a kamau you can pretty much gut the fireteam, target the specialists, and even without the knowledge that one of the two plain rifles is the LT, it's pretty obvious that they are, so if you can drop an akali or crusader down it's throat then you've got a pretty good chance of murdering them both in very few orders, which scuppers the next turn for your opponent...
     
  6. Vaulsc

    Vaulsc Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't strike me as a very reliable list for winning ITS events with. Getting through three unsuspecting opponents also isn't too difficult if they were weaker players than you.
     
    Lesh' likes this.
  7. Make PanO Great Again :P

    Make PanO Great Again :P Varuna, with the deadliest reptiles in the sphere

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    Those 20 linked speculative granade launches before he has to show anything (and still has 10 orders with Uxia) are haaaaaaard
     
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  8. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    White Noise episode 122 before people wonder about the validity of the play.

    Which was listed in the original post. My bad. But listen before one theorizes.
     
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  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Something the episode noted is that if you go second against this, limit the Caledonian player's use of command tokens. If they can only spend one command token in a turn, they can't attack with all three links.
     
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  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    'though they don't need to, because they can still attack with two of them and Uxia.

    But it's still important to slow it down that way rather than trying to take 2 orders away.

    True, 'though it's only 8 orders with Uxia that hardly changes much.
     
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  11. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    Like everyone mentioned, The white noise episode details how it is played. He uses command tokens to basically has multiple core links. One of the things discussed is how powerful it is with first turn. It plays with its six key models and throws a lot of firepower.

    His opponents were experienced, but the amount of devastation it causes allows it to steamroll.

    I think Hidden deployment with templates and strong aros are the best idea.
     
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  12. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how this list handles dual noctifer MLs or just a hidden deployment Swiss Guard ML. I suspect not well. I do think you need a way to survive the first turn assault.
     
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  13. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I'm not sure it has any good answers for a TO sniper with decent fire lanes. Nor a good answer to a well placed Kamau Sniper. But I'm seriously dubious about it's ability to handle both, as in:

    Varuna Immediate Reaction Division
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    KAMAU (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
    FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    KAMAU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
    MACHINIST (Varuna Div.) (CH: Mimetism, Stealth, Aquatic Terrain) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    PALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    ZULU-COBRA (Forward Observer) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    ZULU-COBRA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Jammer / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]3
    CROC MAN MULTI Sniper Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZULU-COBRA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Breaker Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
    FUGAZI DRONBOT Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Red Fury / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I would like to add, I do agree with the players question that this kind of list highlights. As in, should Infinity allow more than 3 combat groups? Because what you take to deal with an elite force and a pure 28 order spam list is different. And the 3 combat group list has attrition on its side. The more dice you can roll the greater the chance of just getting kills through crits. All those chain rifles paired with light shotguns is great on the defense if theres enough terrain to force close engagements.

    Or does the problem lies in total ava and maybe it should be removed from the game. Perhaps every unit should have a hard number limit for ava. I remember someone won a tournament with Kum spam. So these kind of extreme spam lists isn't new but it is brutal.
     
    #14 Death, Mar 9, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  15. Sedral

    Sedral White Banner Officier

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    Do note that Grey HMG all have smoke grenades as well, so against a surprise TO sniper/missile they can still save their skin with 2 dices on 19. Some of the volunteers might die, but it's pretty much irrelevant with the number of spare he has at hand.
     
  16. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    It's less about that initial surprise 'though and more about the fact that they then have to deal with an ARO piece which they can't get significant superiority over.
     
  17. Sedral

    Sedral White Banner Officier

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    Well, define "significant superiority", because a Grey AP HMG can still throw 5 dices at 10 VS a swiss guard's 15 (With 2 of them and smokes, I assume the caledonians can engage the swiss while in cover after the initial surprise shot).

    3rd Highlander Grey Rifles - AP HMG vs. Swiss Guard - Missile Launcher

    Active Player
    47.68% 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles inflicts 1 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (1 W)
    16.98% 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles inflicts 2 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Unconscious)
    4.06% 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles inflicts 3 or more wounds on Swiss Guard (Dead)

    Failures
    21.58% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    30.73% Swiss Guard inflicts 1 or more wounds on 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles (Unconscious)
    20.07% Swiss Guard inflicts 2 or more wounds on 3rd Highlander Grey Rifles (Dead)

    It's not good odds, but it's far from the worse I've seen for a "do or die" situation. It'll definitely slow down the scotsmen though, but I think your varuna list is a much better counter.
     
    #17 Sedral, Mar 9, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  18. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    "it's not an OP list if we just assume that all three opponents were crayon eaters"

    I'm loving the subtle dig at the opponents who faced this, unless you have info we're not privy to?
     
  19. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    That episode of white noise was very interesting, mostly because I love the idea that the guy who played that list was very worried about his opponents still having a nice time by having everything Wysiwyg, playing in less than 1 hour, order expenditure being crystal clear etc ...

    I wonder if a HI core link hidding and looking only for short angles, supported by TO sniper watching my side of the table, would be a reliable counter. Something like Joan link of doom or a magister link as a first line of defense. I'm not affraid of Uxia, her odds against a HI with a shotgun in cover in a full 5 men link are not great.

    Uxia McNeill - Assault Pistol (2) vs. Magister Knights - Light Shotgun
    Active Player
    27.73% Uxia McNeill inflicts 1 or more wounds on Magister Knights (1 W)
    5.13% Uxia McNeill inflicts 2 or more wounds on Magister Knights (Unconscious)
    0.69% Uxia McNeill inflicts 3 or more wounds on Magister Knights (Dead)

    Failures
    26.73% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    45.54% Magister Knights inflicts 1 or more wounds on Uxia McNeill (Unconscious)
    10.80% Magister Knights inflicts 2 or more wounds on Uxia McNeill (Dead)


    The grey with shotguns is what get me worried. I guess would need to get lucky and shoot him with a TO sniper when here reaches my DZ.

    That kind of tactics has proven to be efficient if you get average luck against Ariadna in the past. But I never faced soo many orders.
     
  20. FlipOwl

    FlipOwl Well-Known Member

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    Hi!
    I have quite a bit of experience playing with a similar list to the one above. As others have said, my main worry is losing the Greys early. The list is quite vulnerable to going second, especially if the opposing list features warbands with plenty of orders. One Dog Warrior has the potential to wreck my entire day. In PanO, I hate facing the spec-firing squalo, Auxbots etc that can wreck my deployment zone with low risk to themselves.

    There are two things that you can keep in mind:
    Try to take out the fangs: The Volunteers have a hard time crossing the field alone, so prioritize the Greys.

    If you cannot get at the Greys, you need to take out the order pool. What I want my opponent to do is to focus on one of my order groups (I often set them up to cover eachother). If I lose all of group 1 I will still have ten orders to work with in group 2, which allows me to attack effectively.
    If, on the other hand, I lose 5 orders from each group neither of them retain full offensive capacity. If I lose the Grey and four additional orders from a group it is basically relegated to defensive duty since it will not be able to reach effectively beyond the midfield (assuming competent ARO-placement from the opponent).

    I hope this input helps the discussion!
     
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