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Post Daedalus Fall List Talk

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by borings, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty stoked to have some new units, figured i'd post up what i think my new base list will look like. feel free to comment and whatnot, and i'd love to see some lists from other people, to see what people are thinking about what with the symbionerf and all the new stuff and all. anyways, here we go:

    Best
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]5
    DRAAL Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges, Dazer / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)
    KAAURI Sentinel Submachine Gun, 2 Nanopulsers, Nullifier / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 12)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    SUKEUL HMG, D-Charges / Pistol, Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
    KRIIGEL Submachine Gun, Phero-Booster / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW. (0 | 13)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    TAAGMA Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    KAELTAR Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioBombs / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    1.5 SWC | 298 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    the basic idea behind my list is explained in an older thread, feel free to read that here if you haven't already. rather than go over what i've already said, i figure ill just talk about the new choices and the reasoning behind them.

    Draal w/ dazer: with the nerf to mates, and the new options available, i think this draal will inevitably take the sukeul Lt.'s place in this list. the loss of the Lt. order (which wasn't that useful to begin with as it broke the triad) is compensated for with the dazer, in my opinion. smart use of this device will force the opponent to walk down different avenues, or potentially be stopped mid move, and might even get the opponent to spend orders shooting the dazer to get it off the table. stratocloud is great, as it actually makes the draal better in firefights than the sukeul for the turn it is used (low vis ~ mimetism, with the saturation zone pushing the fight towards draal). draal of course has stealth so they don't ruin the makauls advance, and with the 6-2 move it is more maneuverable than the sukeul. this guy should deployed a little upfield from the makauls it is in a triad with, so that on the first turn (assuming you are safe) you can break the fireteam and let the makauls double move forward to catch up to where the draal is.

    Kriigel w/ pherobooster: this guy is taking the place of the sakiel paramedic in the sukeul's fireteam. giving up the ability to do medic classifieds, but able to do FO classifieds with its gun. what a cool gun right? Repeatable mirrorball on this guy makes the sukeul hmg king of shooting in tohaa. no longer shall we fear guys with mimetism and msv1. now they get a -6 penalty to shooting instead of ignoring our normal penalty. and, if you position the kriigel well, you should be able to get some eraser aro's on people trying to sneak up on the sukeul. basically we are sacrificing paramedic (not suuuuper useful) and one wound for versatility here. definitely an upgrade in my book.

    Taagma: Counterintel in a 20 order list is clutch. i always want to go first, and now i get to get all the orders i bring, yay! have this guy pretend to be a kamael with a combi, and plop him on the opposite side of the map from the real Lt. i know it's only a shell game of 2, but getting into our dz should be such a pain for an opponent that Lt. hunting just isn't worth it. the taagma is taking the place of the kamael paramedic here, which is prolly fine.

    Kaeltar w/bombs: With points going towards kriigel and taagma, something had to get cut in cost. the CoC didn't seem as useful to me, what with the Lt. lying on a roof in the backfield all day, and mates are now just a crapshoot, so bombs it is. my argument for bombs previously was always that i could take mates, which didn't require rolls to use. now that is no longer true, bombs are just as viable as mates are, even better with some of the guys here. take the draal for example. go around a corner with double pulzars, burst 4 smg, and a symbiobomb (i am assuming the makauls are still with him). if your opponent dodges, you can pop your bomb to do unopposed endgame, if they reset, you can double pulzar, if they shoot you can shoot back or just go for the pulzar, depending on your confidence. with stratocloud its even good against fireteams, as they only get to shoot once each, and you can split your full burst. only two people can carry bombs here, but they are both good carriers overall.

    Kamael Lt.: obviously replacing the kamael with a combi. he got promoted! yay for him. now he can lie down on a roof and hope no one ever comes over. someone had to be a lt. it may as well be this guy. with the taagma, at least you can hope your opponent goes for the wrong one if they do a rush.


    overall the list is gaining some cool new tricks (dazer, pherobooster, mirrorball, bombs) and losing mates, which honestly in my experience were best used to ignore koalas and mines. the kraal is arguably now the best guy for removing those, what with such a high dodge and all. most important in my opininion is counterintel. I get that two extra orders on the first turn might not seem like a lot, but it often means an extra 2 kills with makauls on the first turn, which means 2 less orders for them on their first turn.
     
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Jesus that's an @borings list alright. Never change, you wonderful person :P
     
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  3. OrderMonkey

    OrderMonkey Well-Known Member

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    I really need to give your lists a go. I usually play 16-18 orders myself, trying to cap out on SWC is hard that way. You just don't care about them at all, giving you even more orders.
     
  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    @borings any objection to using this as a general thread for post-Daedelus lists?
     
  5. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    no objection at all, please share
     
  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    This is a first draft of a very simply change to my standard list to include Draal:


    Daedelus' Wake #1
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    DRAAL Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges, Dazer / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    NIKOUL Viral Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    DIPLOMATIC DELEGATE (iKohl L1, Specialist Operative) Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    It's hoping to leverage the Stratuscloud to maximum effective offensively and/or defensively. If I'm going first, I set up the Draal and Gao-Rael spitfire near one another and use the Spitfire to shred any enemy ARO elements form inside the Stratuscloud. If I'm going second, I put the Nikoul at the end of a long lane with a Draal prone somewhere further up, so enemy attack elements have to engage the Nikoul through the Stratuscloud.


    This is a second edit with a similar idea but including a Kiuutan. It includes sybmiobombs but can easily exchange the Kaeltar bombfriend for a Taagma if the bombs turn out to be average but I decide I want to experiment with Counterintelligence:

    Daedelus' Wake #2
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]2
    GAO-RAEL Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1 | 31)
    KAELTAR Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioBombs / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 15)
    KAMAEL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    DRAAL Submachine Gun, Pulzar, D-Charges, Dazer / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)
    KIIUTAN Combi Rifle / Viral Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    LIBERTO (Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
    NIKOUL Viral Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
    GAO-RAEL Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 33)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)
    MAKAUL Heavy Flamethrower, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 13)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    6 SWC | 299 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I've been playing with Spiral Corps lists all day and I really can't figure out how this army is even supposed to work due to some of the restrictions. I'm mostly confused as to whether or not I'm doing it completely wrong, or misunderstanding what does what. And again, these are observations just based on lists, not actual gameplay.

    1) Neema is *the only* triad piece with a SWC weapon and multiple wounds. The only other SWC weapon options are the Reex Spitfire and the Taagma MSR. I don't understand why the Kiel-San doesn't have regular triad, it would only be competing with Neema and honestly that's a toss-up for me.

    2) The army has exactly 2 HMGs. One is a knockoff TR bot (fine) but the other is the Anaconda (which I don't think deserves any more explanation about why it is not good).

    3) The actual style and ability of triads is very strange -- the "ITS Triad" doesn't really exist in this army. I feel like it's best to have 5 triadable units and juggle around your tricore taagma to where you need it. The Brawler Core with a Taagma Viral Sniper seems like a trap to me for this reason -- you get around a lot of the restrictions of deploying and maneuvering with TriCore instead (which has a better/more interesting outcome since you can Holo1 both the TriCore and the Sniper).

    4) I still don't understanding what the Greif Operator does besides sit in the midfield and die because it has no marker state. The Impersonator version is just a straight downgrade from the Kiiutan.

    5) The Kriigel, Kiiutan and Draal basically hold the army together.

    I don't think Spiral Corps is bad (let's face it, no army with access to the tools that Spiral Corps has could be bad), but I do think I am not approaching the army in the right way. Something about it reminds me a bit of HB or JSA, with their limited long range options but great ability to get into the enemy DZ and interesting midfield control, but I don't know how this army is supposed to get anyone out of its DZ.
     
    #7 meikyoushisui, Mar 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
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  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Something I've been doing in early lists is building cheap Taagma triads with the four chaksa I was going to take anyway. The opportunity cost seems very low and it provides an order base and B2 HFTs in active or reactive.

    I'm strongly considering whether a Kaeltar of either variety is even a thing you take in Taagma unless you're running Lt Neema and want the chain of command (and mate, I suppose), except I really want to retain the stratuscloud on Draal so am thinking about it just for mates for that purpose.
     
  9. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Another little thought bubble in terms of useful list modules: a 13pt Monstrucker and 1-2 Chaksa Servants.

    Something I've had on my mind for a while now is the potential of a Chaksa servant as just a body blocker and order-waster. They've got mimetism to stack with cover, can dodge (or engage, more importantly) on 14s and discover at WIP13, and they're very cheap provided you don't have a high overhead to authorise them (which was the problem previously with the relatively expensive Bioengineer).

    Against something like Ariadna trying to get infiltrating grunts into your deployment zone, this feels like it could cute little inclusion for low overhead given the Monstrucker himself is basically a good include just to run around placing Drop Bears or going into suppression.
     
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  10. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

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    Posted elsewhere with no answer...
    Question: Dazer & Stratuscloud
    Do they Stack? Will shooting at/through a Draal Saboteur through a Dazer w/ Active Stratuscloud State cause -2 burst (to a min 1 I know)
    So does this stack?
     
  11. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    They don't. Both are saturation zones. Multiple saturation zones don't stack.
     
  12. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    Seems you have good results with gao raels. do you really prefer the sniper over the hmg sukeul? Are you using the kerail for smoke tricks? What kind of table coverage do you normally play on? I feel like table coverage has to be the biggest difference between metas, as far as i can tell there isnt a standardized idea of how the terrain should go on the table. As for the taagma, i think ive made my love for them clear, but the proportional advantage you get from keeping the extra orders just keeps growing as your combat groups grow smaller in number (to the max at 11, obviously)

    Also, i love the list names
     
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  13. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    The Gao-Rael Sniper and Sukeul HMG aren't really comparable, but I do prefer the Gao-Rael spitfire to the Sukeul HMG. Models with visual mods are very common locally which about equalises the value of a Gao-Rael's MSV and a Sukeul's mimetism, and sometimes good MSV2 coverage just shuts down an enemy game plan. With the advent of the Draal, the Gao-Rael spitfire is now our best anti-link firepower, able to engage just about anything standard link ARO element with good odds for success (although mabye don't engage enemy linked missiles from inside a Draal's stratuscloud unless they're packing a symbiomate and you're feeling lucky, for reasons I feel I shouldn't have to articulate).

    As for why the Gao-Rael Sniper is in my list: I don't mind playing a list that relies exclusively on close-in defensive AROs, but Tohaa snipers are pretty damn good (or at least they were until the symbiomate change; testing is now required) and layering defences really creates a lot of depth that helps the list perform more consistently against a wider variety of opponents (in particular the Gao-Rael especially is important against warband rush lists).

    Yes, but it's also a great cheap attack piece, pretty ok datatracker in some scenarios and very nice backup melee element.

    I'd say on the very slightly dense side of average. It's very rare to see really wide fields of fire, although long lanes are relatively common. We had an englishman over at our national event earlier this year and he suggested that our tables were pretty similar to what he saw locally, and from what I've seen of US and russian tourneys we're on a pretty common standard to them too.

    If anything I would say Australian tables have a tendency toward intricacy with more little interactable elements and complex of shapes/geometry in our boards, which I suspect is mostly an expression of some really experienced terrain builders we have that like to stretch themselves. We have nothing like a monopoly on this though.

    I also personally tend to put a bit of care into building deployment zones that are somewhat defensible against a turn one alpha strike. This isn't universal - I saw a couple tables at CanCon that I couldn't ever imagine a phalanx player losing on if they got first turn and rushed a flank with Hector or Phoenix - but common at least locally.

    I agree with this assessment. Personally I'm hoping I'll be able to put Taagma in about half my lists and hope people get into the habit of not stripping orders at all, but I don't think that'll be reliable. Oh well, 16pts isn't too hard an investment to make.

    Thanks. :)
     
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  14. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

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    Thanks man this is the stuff I need to learn more about
     
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  15. Thaddius

    Thaddius Well-Known Member

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    Spiral Corps
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8 [​IMG]2
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 9)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    BRAWLER Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    BRAWLER Doctor (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
    BRAWLER Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    BRAWLER Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
    TAAGMA (Multispectral Visor L2) Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 25)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    KERAIL PRECEPTOR Submachine Gun, Smoke Grenades + 1 Surda SymbioBeast / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 20)
    [​IMG] SURDA SYMBIOBEAST Pulzar / Viral CCW. (0 | 8)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]2
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    DIPLOMATIC DELEGATE (iKohl L1, Specialist Operative) Nanopulser, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    TAAGMA (Tri-Core) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
    DRAAL (Minelayer) AP Marksman Rifle, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Viral Pistol, Knife. (1 | 40)
    TAAGMA (Multispectral Visor L2) Viral Sniper / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 25)
    HELOT MILITIAMAN Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    CHAKSA AUXILIAR (Baggage, Sensor) Heavy Flamethrower / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 10)
    KAELTAR (Chain of Command) Light Shotgun, Flash Pulse + 2 SymbioMates / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 21)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Trying this tonight. Mission is power pack so might need to adjust. Basically strong ARO presence. Double Core + Helots. Trying Draal AP Rifle. Really wanting a high burst strike piece as well as Viral Sniper. Will let you know how it goes.
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    @Thaddius any reason why that brawler Lt isn't a Taagma Lt? Value the shotgun and ARM/BTS over the WIP and holoprojector1?

    EDIT: for some reason I missed the second Taagma in group two. Disregard!

    The more I look at it the more I like the list, although I wish it had a Kriigel smoke LGL.
     
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  17. DustGod

    DustGod Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking full fireteams/Tri core team too... That's alotta fire power...
    Man the more I look at Phero-booster the more I like it...
    I'm thinking TAGs, multi wound models, things that need to die...
    Can you?
    Shoot a TAG (or any other must die now model) with Phero-Booster then coordinated order guided/ speculative fire?
     
  18. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    As far as i can tell, yes. It seems like kinda a waste to have enough chaksa shrl to be able to coordinate, as you would at most be able to do that 5 times. It would be pretty cinematic tho, raining fire down from afar
     
  19. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I have found the first spiral corps list I actually like.

    Edit: List removed due to formatting. See list two below.
     
    #19 TheRedZealot, Mar 28, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  20. borings

    borings Well-Known Member

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    Thats a lot of creatures in there. Is the plan to use clipsos to mark targets and then chaksa shrl to finish them off? If it is i would suggest putting one clipsos and chaksa shrl into each group, so you can spend one groups orders marking and the others attacking, using whichever group has the closer clipsos to target as needed.