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Poll: Should failed healing inflict wounds in N4?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hachiman Taro, Apr 23, 2020.

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Should failed healing attempts inflect wounds in N4?

  1. No. Doctors and Engineers should do no harm, even when they fail

    59 vote(s)
    62.8%
  2. Yes. It's fine how it works now

    35 vote(s)
    37.2%
  1. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Hi,

    I feel like it would be better if failed attempts at healing did not do damage. Apart from endless trauma doc memes, I think your own doctors and engineers killing your own models is a net negative for the game both balance and fun wise.

    The wasted order(s) to get to the model and attempt it are enough of a game penalty, it doesn't make much sense from a fluff perspective (doctors first do no harm), it's a bad gameplay experience, and it introduces some distortions in the game (like making manned TAGs undesirable for many players, because fails can't be rerolled either and wounding your own expensive model with no mitigation sucks).

    Perhaps, like with failed discover attempts, the same model should not be able to attempt a second time after a failure instead (but can still reroll with command tokens as now). Then your opponent would get an opportunity to take out your doctor / engineer before they get another chance, so there is some counterplay too.

    I heard in the Code 1 book that failed healing still hurts the target model, so I thought it might be worth seeing if there's a community consensus on this while there is still an opportunity to change it for N4.
     
    #1 Hachiman Taro, Apr 23, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2020
  2. deltakilo

    deltakilo Bear of Butcher bay
    Warcor

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    I voted against harming. The order wastage to get there, and then to try again if you fail is a big enough punishment.

    Manned tags are almost exclusively not played because of this rule. And elite one wound models particularly those without cubes get punished for this.
     
  3. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Totally. With crits potentially inflicting multiple wounds/structural damage, and shock everywhere, there are already enough mechanics representing a non-survivable injury (being in the dead state), no need to include failed doctor rolls in the mix.
     
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  4. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    The only form healing that could potentially wound the target is that from a paramedic or medkit, considering that theyre are drugging the patient on the ground as opposed to actually doing anything.
    To quote a certain purple armoured pacifist "Well, a doctor cures people. A medic just makes them more comfortable while they die."


    But on the other hand I'll never get to see anything like my opponent's Hospo doc slowly dismember Joan instead of healing her again.
     
  5. SpectralOwl

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    Watching the Paramedic spray the surrounding landscape with Medkit band-aids over the course of 7 orders might come close. No risk of a total negative outcome would make people much more likely to actually risk the BS mode on a Medikit for the Order efficiency.
     
  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I could handle medikits at range carrying the risk of death for sure.
     
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  7. SpectralOwl

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    Figured I should mention, someone on Facebook mentioned that the Medkit PH roll is now unmodified. We may still see a bunch of guys dying but Paramedics might earn their points outside of button-pushing, since most HI will now be recovering on fairly good odds.
    Edit; Unmodified IN C1. No N4 spoilers or anything.
     
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  8. Cruxader

    Cruxader Member

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    I think it's fine how it is now. Shooting a model is more order intensive than bringing it back. Personally, I don't want the risk / reward for doctoring/repairing modified. I would, however, like manned TAGS to be properly repairable ... or perhaps more significantly discounted. You could modify the current text:

    If the target of the repair is a trooper with the Ghost or Manned Special Skill, then the Engineer may expend one Command Token to reroll his failed WIP Roll. This Roll may be rerolled indefinitely as long as a Command Token is spent each time.

    These rerolls take place during the same Order in which the Engineer Special Skill was declared, and generate no further AROs.
    We can pretend the command token's making it a coordinated order and the pilot's getting out to assist :-P
     
  9. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    That would have made a good 'Other: please specify' option if I had have been smart enough to include one, yes :)
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I think it should remain as is now in overall, but could be tweacked a bit (allow rerolls based in something else different that cubes, or allow to heal not only the inconcious troopers). If it is changed to remove only the bad side, doctor and medikit costs should go up to compensate, which I wouldnt like. And taking it out just for free... that seems a bit of unfair to me, just a gift for low WIP docs, which will gain "more" than the high WIP ones with this change.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The order intensity varies very wildly between factions in my opinion. I don't personally play any faction where doctoring is a freebie by any description and often when I do spend orders doctoring it is 1 to 5 orders making no progress towards the mission objective in order to cancel the efforts which it took my opponent 1 order in which they both denied one of my next turn's orders and typically made progress towards the objective.
    That said, there's a few factions where I will make a conscious choice to use Shock over AP on f.ex. MULTI Rifles because doctoring in those factions are both order efficient and fairly reliable; mainly various Aleph and Haqq factions (but also interestingly a few PanO)

    I'm not arguing they should nerf those factions, but I do think that making design choices with those factions as benchmark for how Doctoring works will only screw over Doctoring for factions who don't casually get to have high quality beatstick and/or linkable doctors, but who has to rely on a light infantry with low WIP and at best a G:Servant or two.

    I think the re-roll on Engineer is kind of a last vestage advantage that Pan-O has over many other human TAGs and would like to see manned TAGs make proper use of the pilot as a soldier instead.
     
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  12. Bobman

    Bobman MERC

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    I don’t dislike the current method. I certainly feel without the risk of losing a troop on failure it would increase the amount of time a revive is attempted. Even more so with Paramedic as you’re already rolling to hit and PH.
     
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  13. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    I find a unit that easily comes back every round to be annoying enough, but I'm not sure. At least it shouldn't damage TAGs or apply to regen. That's probably the only things I would change.
     
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  14. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I'm not sure how to vote.
    I play mainly Haqq and my doctors finished off many of my units, even with the high WIP and sometimes re-rolls (most brutal was killing Tarik even though I had 2 re-rolls). And not all of my units have Cubes, which is important.
    I really don't like that some lame PanO TraumaDoc has re-rolls on almost all units, while I often depend on one chance and my not so good rolls.
    Yet I feel that loosing the wounding on failed healing roll would make the doctors even less different - the poor ones will definitely gain more from this, than the good ones - and that's not fair IMHO.

    The case with TAGs is even more irritating - some 12 WIP Machinist is much more reliable to fix some G:REM TAG than my better Enginner with Maggie. I would definitely change something with this, because REM TAGs are just so much better, with 2 Unconsciousness states and re-rolls on repairing.


    PozdRawiam / Greetings
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Refloating an idea I wrote in some other forgotten thread:

    Instead of killing their patients, a Doctor who fails could place the patient in a Stabilized state, a null state that replaces the Unconscious state with similar effects to SpawnEmbryo; causing the unit to no longer count towards casualties, but still deducting from Victory Points total. Unlike SpawnEmbryo, Doctoring attempts on Stabilized units wouldn't be possible.
     
  16. SpectralOwl

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    Eh, the Doctor Plus skill is priced identically to Doctor, so honestly the good Doctors are essentially arbitrary anyway.

    As for the Engineer thing, having played the Szalamandra, Anaconda and a few PanO TAGs I come down on the side of more useful Pilots rather than taking away the best part of the G:Remote Presence advantage. Combining Pilot and Operator to allow for a profile that can come out of a TAG and actually do stuff normally, both when needed and after the destruction of the main vehicle, would be a good choice here. The Annie Operator hits hard enough for a second-phase attacker and the Szally Pilot is a respectable combat Hacker, and both could stand on their own with a bit of rules tweaking.
     
  17. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I don't mind that idea (although it adds some book keeping / complexity) and thought about adding something similar to the poll, but thought it might be a bit confusing.

    Mainly it just seems weird your doc kills your own guys, who would remain alive if not for the 'expert' medical intervention.

    I'd be OK with this + something better for manned TAGS (REMs generally aren't too bad with rerolls and double unc state).
     
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  18. Bobman

    Bobman MERC

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    Are you ever going to get them out though? And risk losing your TAG?

    I could see the Sally Pilot as you can get out in relative safety and a Killer Hacker is going to usually be fine if you're simply removing AHD that threaten the TAG.
     
  19. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I always saw the "unconscious state" as if when the doctor fails, is just the moment he says "this dude cannot be healed here" more than a "I just killed him"
     
  20. SpectralOwl

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    When I said combining Operator and Pilot, I meant that you can get them out both before and after destruction of the TAG. So you could have the Pilot out for Specialist duty, but also take them out of the wreck to keep fighting and providing Orders like an Operator. Would also be a huge buff to Manned TAG LTs like the Guijia.
     
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