White Noise says: "On a successful Normal WIP Roll, the Hacker may place the Circular Template representing the White Noise Zone inside their Hacking Area at the end of the Order." Does "at the end of the Order" mean at 6.1 Effects (ie before Guts) or at the end of 6.2 Conclusion (ie after Guts)? I tend to think it occurs at the end of 6.2 where it says "End of the Order", but that's rather weird.
After doing a search in the wiki for the phrase “end of the order”, I think you have to go with that option. Enough things like Jumper token management and Escape System happen at that point in the order that you’d need to argue that CB got the timing wrong instead rather than rely on “that feels weird”. :-/
It makes sense that Escape System happens at the End of the Order because that needs to be resolved in the Conclusion (although that does raise an interaction I hadn't clicked to: an Iguana whose Escape System activates will first Guts). Whereas the natural place for White Noise to occur is during Effects, and in N3 CB did routinely use "End of the Order" loosely. What I really want is the OES broken down into all of the sub-steps. For example, step 1.2 is actually. So, for step 6.2 I *think* it works like this: 6.2. Conclusion: A. If necessary, players make Guts Rolls and apply their effects. B. Apply the effects of any skills that say they occur during Conclusion (such as Place Deployable). C. End of the Order. If relevant, the player must check Coherency. Apply the effects of any skills that say they occur at the end of the Order (such as White Noise). But *shrug* you could argue that Place Deployable happens before Guts Movement not after, I have NFI.
Interesting. Explode says "At the end of the Order in which the user entered Unconscious State, before making Guts Rolls, the Trooper makes a Direct Template Attack..." Alert says that it happens "At the end of the Order, during its Conclusion, and after performing any Saving Rolls" and reiterates in another bullet that it happens during the Conclusion. Coherency says that it's checked "at the end of the Order, at the end of the Conclusion, after having performed any movement due to a failed Guts Roll or any other rule." Sooo, "end of the order" can mean before the Conclusion, during the Conclusion, or after the Conclusion, depending on the rule. Unfortunately it can't have a single meaning so I guess this must be another unanswered question! Some related questions: - The template must be placed in the user's hacking area. If he moved, can it be placed in his hacking area from any point in his movement, or only the hacking area of his position at the end of the order? (probably the former). - If the template is placed after Guts, and if the hacker moved due to Guts, does the Guts movement extend his hacking area to his new position? - Same question with Place Deployable. The deployable is placed in the same step as Guts. If the troop makes a Guts movement first, can he now place the deployable in contact with his new, post-Guts position?
Cheers for looking up those other examples, I suspected I'd have to work out the broader timing issues. :) Another related question - Can you place it inside ZOC of a Repeater that entered a Null state during step 6.1? (I assume so due to all at one time, but this means that you need to leave Dead Repeaters on the table until you finish resolving White Noise). @Mahtamori - based on @QueensGambit post, I think it's reasonable to say that "When are effects that take place 'at the end of the order' without any other qualifier performed?" is an unresolved question. So this one deserves its own thread. But based on precedent from N3, you need to specify the location you are going to place the Deployable token during Conclusion when you declare 'Place Deployable' as it is a detail of the skill. So the question is actually, can we place the deployable where he declared it despite the fact that he's no longer in contact with that position? Also, what happens if he's in the Dead state? // It would be SOOO much easier if this was all resolved during 6.1 Effects which is the place that the effects of skills are designed to be resolved.
I have to ask; why does it matter? Doesn't everything that makes this potentially maybe possible matter fall under the more dire question of what details you actually state when declaring the order? As in, "where in the hacking area" is easily answered with "relating to the spot you declared you'd be using the skill from", meanwhile arguably the location of the template should be specified when declaring the order similar to how burst and smoke templates are declared and placed.
Heh, I think it would be one giant "what is the order for resolution of Effects, actions taken 'at the end of the order,' actions taken 'at the Conclusion of the order,' Guts rolls and movement, Dogged declarations, and anything else I've missed." That's a good point. I don't know if the unanswered questions list should include provisional questions which depend on the answers to other unanswered questions :-) I had read White Noise as saying that you don't choose the template placement until you place it, but you're right, it's not clear. If it turns out that everything has to be declared in advance, then the question in this thread may be moot.
I do agree that this is a lower priority. I asked it because it tangentially came up in another conversation: it's quite niche because generally when declaring White Noise you *shouldn't* be attack. Burst and Smoke Templates are both explicit that you need to place them at declaration. White Noise is explicit that you don't place the template until the End of the Order. Moreover, you can't place the template until you've measured Hacking Area because: "The Circular Template must be totally inside the Hacking Area." So it's not like a Smoke template where you declare where you want the template to be centered, place the template centred on that position, roll to see if it goes down and then Guts rather its like Dodge where you declare that you're going to White Noise, Roll to see if it goes down, [maybe Guts] and then place the template totally inside the Hacking Are [and then maybe Guts]. So yes - if CB wants to break [warning: hyperbole] White Noise by making the template be placed at declaration (we've seen how well that worked with Mines) then this problem does largely go away (although it does leave the question of whether you Alert! before or after Guts movement open); but right now we haven't got a clarification to that effect. I think the way that QueensGambit rephrased my question is actually the more pressing question - How does the timing within Step 6 work? You already included the Dodge vs Re-enter Camo question, and I've used your logic in that thread to answer another timing issue in a local meta discussion (Dodge into a Mine placement IIRC). So perhaps making that a more general question would be a better way to treat it?
Just because the template needs to be fully within the Hacking Area doesn't mean you don't specify target location before measuing the area, very similar to BS Attacks and rangebands.
The template being inside of the Hacking Area isn't even a Requirement, rather it's an Effect. The target being in Range of a BS Attack isn't an Effect of a BS Attacks that must be fulfilled. Indeed, you're explicitly permitted to declare BS Attacks at targets that are out of range. This isn't the same case as for White Noise: you are not permitted to place the template in such a way that any part of it is outside of the Hacking Area. While we know how to resolve Requirements that aren't met, we don't know how to resolve Effects that aren't met. Indeed, there's a fair argument that - while skill declarations that don't have a valid ARO or which don't meet their Requirements are simply invalid and therefore resolved as an idle - skill declarations that don't comply with their Effects are illegal.
I'm not sure I agree. Hacking area is a bit more hard requirement for White Noise than rangeband is for BS Attacks. Tossing a grenade at 24" fails the declaration similarly to attempting to place White Noise half outside the Hacking Area, but the grenade do not have a bunch of extra rulea regarding how Hacking programs act inside Hacking Area which makes declarations against stuff outside of ZoC more dubious. As is, I can see no logical fault with existing rules for demanding the target of White Noise to be specified prior to measuring Hacking Area. However, I can see some errors croping up if ALL details aren't required to be specified on declaration, mainly in the form of potential gotchas. That said I do think it is aa bit disappointing it doesn't work as a smoke grenade with regards to FTF
What happens when it's declared in such a way the template is not totally inside the Hacking Area? Edit: also, what gotchas? Both players know exactly as much as each other about the potential placement options for White Noise at declaration.
Because not just White Noise would be affected, unless they made a specific and very intrusive alternate declaration requirement for White Noise and only White Noise.
They *have* made an alternative declaration requirement for White Noise is my contention. As far as I can tell, it produces no gotchas by playing it that way. Again, though, what happens when a player attempts to place the White Noise template such that it is not totally inside the Hacking Area?
It's out of range. When you measure Zone of Control, the Zone of Control dependent skill has the target being outside the Hacking Area. It's no different from when you declare Oblivion on a Hacker that's not in your Hacking Area...
Well fuck me, I could have sworn Oblivion etc had the Hacking Area as a requirement not an effect. My bad. I still think it works a lot better to make the decision about there to place the template after measuring ZOC, but fair point.
All in all, I think the weakness of N4 is going to be that instead of listing Requirements as more consistent to dictionary definition being a list of criteria to be allowed to declare the skill, the "requirements" are instead a list of items that are specifically checked later. Basically, it seems to me that the Requirements are stuff that aren't declared, but rather used to validate the declared details, to be the most consistent interpretation of what the game term "requirements" is. "Validation", in other words, is probably a better word for how the game uses "Requirements". Like you declared Doctor on the target. Okay, let's check that the target is actually unconscious. Ah, nope, sorry, Angus is conscious, have to wait for Angus to lose a fight first. (Yes, you can actually declare Doctor on a target that's conscious, it's not smart as the skill will fail and you'll Idle) At least it is my opinion that the ruleset is greatly improved if all player choices are made known immediately on declaration, so that the opposing player will have a fair chance to evaluate how to react.
Maybe a stupid question. What happens if the hacker/rem (repeater) moves after the White noise template is down on the table? Does it disappear? Moves with the hacker/rem (repeater)? Or stays in place?
