Placing a smoke template

EDIT

 

I think the only way you can do version A is if you do not then allow the adjustment of the template. You declare a target and then place the template to see who is affected by it. Adjusting smoke after placing the template down would be akin to pre-measuring, IMO.

 

I think technically both are fine. I think concensus is that you can't fiddle the template as it essentially constitutes pre measuring

Hence why version 2 or using a small token for the blast focus has evolved (at least that's why I use it). So you can think about your spot a bit which is natural, without it looking like you're trying to eye up the perfect coverage.

 

I never saw such a consensus here.

I always played by putting down my circular and teardrop template when fiddling with it so i had the position I wanted (and always allowed my opponent to do the same). Never had an issue with this

 

I'd really like an official ruling on this. My meta has always enforced picking a spot on the board before template placement. Allowing placement of the template but then not allowing fiddling seems like an odd middle ground to me, as you could easily get around it by just placing the template down slowly so it's always down perfectly (maybe you won't always get sightlines right, but you can at least guarantee that it's over the models you want covered).

If it does turn out that you place the actual template on the table (I would probably argue against this, but that's just me) then it would make the most sense to treat it like movement, where it's more about intent than guessing where you need to get your model or template to (e.g: "I move enough forward that I can see that guy but not that guy", or "I place this template down such that the edge of it is touching that model")

 

Started out playing A, changed to B when a rules-lawyer got on the group about pre-measuring.

 

I don't really mind how it's played either way. It'd be nice to have it clarified but also hardly find needing to optimize smoke that badly that its a pressing issue.

I predominantly switched to option B to remove any doubt about premeasuring. Which I'm fairly sure last time this came up, excessive fiddling could easily be used to premeasure things and therefore even innocent fiddler's could be misconstrued as having nefarious intentions.

 

Is there actually a meaningful difference between the two options? Assuming you don't try to adjust the position of the template after you place it in option A.

 

Not really no. Option B is more of a courtesy in my opinion.

 

I just searched the entire rulebook PDF for the word "measure" (including any word that includes those letters such as measurement) and read each and every single rule regarding "measure".

This same question just came up in another post: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/which-is-correct-smoke-example.34720/

So what constitutes a "measurement" in infinity?

Throwing smoke is a BS Attack. Placing the template is not a form of measurement. Measuring the distance to the Blast Focus is a measurement.

The rules for attacking with a template are:

• Circular Direct Template: Place the center of the Circular Template (Blast Focus) over the center of the attacker's base. All troopers affected by the Template suffer the Attack.

And in regards to Smoke Special Ammunition:

• Smoke Special Ammunition is a non-offensive ammunition, so it does not require an enemy—or, in fact, any trooper at all—as a target, and can be thrown at any point on the table.

There are no rules stating that you have to place a marker or otherwise when placing a template, nor does it say you cannot adjust your template placement before measuring. Think of teardrop templates. Do you specify a point on the table that the center line of the teardrop template must remain on before placing the template? Do you force players to guess where the center line needs to be in order to hit the most models or does everyone get the template out and adjust it to their liking, making sure the small end is touching their base?

That being said, the debate here is... what is the target of your smoke template?

Are you declaring the intent to get perfect coverage with the template, thus you can fiddle with the template until you have it placed correctly?

OR

Are you declaring a point on the ground that is the target and then place the template?

I'm going to say that Version B is correct, and here is why:

Smoke still requires a target, which is Smoke Special Ammunition is a non-offensive ammunition, so it does not require an enemy—or, in fact, any trooper at all—as a target, and can be thrown at any point on the table. So the target is the point on the table you want the blast focus to be centered on. THEN you place the template so that the blast focus is centered on that point. This actually has nothing to do with measurement in the rules, but fiddling with the template means you are using the template to determine your target (the point on the ground to place the blast focus) instead of selecting a target and then placing the blast focus over that target.

Measurement happens after you've placed the template (with blast focus over the target point) and then you measure for range modifiers.

Teardrop templates are different because the only requirement of placing a teardrop template is that the blast focus (narrow end) of the template has to touch the attacker's base in their firing arc. So you can fiddle all you want, there's no measurement to be made.

 

Declare target, place template, check who’s affected.

https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...target-or-must-you-only-target-a-point.23498/

 

I think in one version, you can easily do "smoke weaving", where you (via intent) place 2 smoke templates perfectly next to eachother with only a 3mm gap between them, in order to slice a specific link member off or something similar. Or perfectly place it on the ground, in an exact angle that allows your Dog Soldier to stay in smoke, when he's forced to jump on the roof.

Bear in mind that none of this is impossible in practice, it's more a matter of "being good" at guesstimating. Some people like that, I still have friends who are immensely proud of the fact that they can guess how far they need to shoot with an Empire Cannon in Warhammer Fantasy Battle, down to 0,5"-2", and greatly lament the fact that pre-measure was introduced. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Funny as much as I "hate" smoke I always went with A and allowed people to wiggle the template slightly (so for example it exactly touched the building or so).

 

I always figured wiggling was part of placing the templet. Considering how easy it would be to accidently wiggle anyway, might as well let people do it on purpose.

 

I have my smoke markers print on 25mm, and glued to regular bases... so I can place the marker, and when we need to check the coverage, I use the clear plastic template from (it hink the brand is) Customeeple, that also allows me to "smoke spam" with Morlocks and Myrmidons without fear or clogging the table or having to carry tons of full sized templates.

 

The post by HellLois pretty definitively states that it's a case of "target a point on the table, smoke goes down centred on that point". I've always used those "smoke markers" with roughly s2 sized bases for the purposes of keeping track of the centre point.

An interesting consequence of HellLois's ruling is that it seems you *can* actually fiddle with the smoke if you declare speculative fire.

 

Nope. You got that the other way around. B is literally RAW and A is what many people use as it's more practical.

My emphasis