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Perimeter Weapons and Mines or How To Break The Game

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Diphoration, Feb 21, 2020.

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  1. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Greetings,

    Before getting angry, this is mostly tongue-in-cheeks, but it's also important to show how rules are broken so that they can eventually be fixed.

    Now that this has been said...

    - - - - -

    What happens if your opponent walks in the ZoC of one of your MadTrap and they own Mines?

    What if the Mine is within ZoC of the MadTrap?

    What if the Mine is anywhere on the table?


    - - - - -

    Let's list out the rules in effect here.

    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Mines
    "Once on the game table, Mines must trigger when an enemy figure or Marker declares or executes an Order or ARO inside their Trigger Area."

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Game_Elements:_Terminology_and_Alignment
    "Enemy. Troopers that belong to the opposing player's Army List or to his team mate or team mates if the game is played in pairs or groups."
    "Figure/ Model. Game element with a Troop Profile represented on the table by a miniature."
    "Marker. Game element with a Troop Profile represented on the table with a token as specified by some Special Skill or Equipment."

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Perimeter#Boost
    "ARO"
    "When Boost is declared, the Perimeter Item will always move until it reaches base to base contact with the target, no matter how far the target is inside its Zone of Control, and considering it has the Super-Jump and Climbing Plus Special Skills for the purposes of declaring its trajectory. The weapon or piece of Equipment detonates automatically at the end of its movement, when it reaches base to base (or Silhouette template) contact."
    "Once Boost is declared the Perimeter Item always reaches the target, ending its movement and detonating in base to base or Silhouette Template contact."
    "When a Perimeter Item declares Boost, it can exit the Zone of Control of its bearer."

    - - - - -

    What we know from this...

    So, Perimeter Weapons fit the description of what can trigger Mines, we also know that they can trigger Mines in active turn and it is a rather popular strategy.

    Mines also say that they can trigger from executing a ARO, which Boost is.

    So my Perimeter Weapon boosting can trigger your Mines as it Boosts torward your trooper.

    There is no rule that defines the trajectory that my Perimeter Weapon must take to reach your trooper.

    A Perimeter Weapon is not bound by its MOV speed and will always reach its target.

    A Perimeter Weapon can take a large detour to reach their target as long as the target is not in a sealed room or the likes.

    - - - - -

    So from that, we can answer the questions...

    What happens if your opponent walks in the ZoC of one of your Perimeter Weapon and they own Mines?
    The Perimeter Weapon will trigger the Mines.

    What if the Mine is within ZoC of the Perimeter Weapon?
    The Perimeter Weapon triggers the Mines as it Boosts to its target.

    What if the Mine is anywhere on the table?
    The Perimeter Weapon can Move, Super-Jump and Climb anywhere as it Boosts to its target, triggering ALL OF THE Mines!

    - - - - -

    [​IMG]

    Feel free to point out any mistakes I made during my analysis
     
    #1 Diphoration, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  2. Luisjoey

    Luisjoey High Marshall of Wotan
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    Some one in Corvus Belli could answer this?

    Need some ruling here, Gangbusters seem more useful than before.

    @Koni
     
  3. Melchior

    Melchior Well-Known Member

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    so its RAW but its crap just don't do it
     
  4. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    "Anybody who attempts to move the perimeter weapon in not the shortest route to the target gets beaten by the TO's stick."

    In the TO's manual. Right after the part about models being placed in sniper towers of doom they aren't meant to deploy in will be pushed off said scenery with the TO's stick.
     
  5. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    This. Definitely this.

    Anyway, you pointed out a good point on how the rules are to be written
     
  6. Jhokalups

    Jhokalups Member

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    I think this ruling might fall apart because perimeter weapons only provide AROs like troopers in the active turn.
    I read this as implying that their movement in boost is not like a trooper then, and wouldn't trigger mines.
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    First, this has been known for a while. It was discussed on the old forum.

    Hell no.

    RAW* you can bounce templates off Perimeter Weapons WHILE THEY ARE BOOSTING. This is completely and utterly fucked if the owning player can't control their path.

    RAW the Perimetre Weapon is now B2B with the target trooper and can be used to block movement.

    The only reasonable way to play Perimeter Weapons is to:
    a) check that viable route exists between the Perimeter Weapon and the target of Boost
    b) if it does, don't move them and remove them from the board during Resolution

    * Actually RAW you can't shoot Perimeter Weapons with any BS Weapon that doesn't specifically say it targets Equipment... But let's not let that get in the way now.

    Tl;dr RAW on Perimeter Items is shit, don't play them RAW.

    (my meta runs MAD on perimeter items anytime anybody suggests a way of exploiting perimeter weapons I point out all the other fucked things about them and we go back to playing them as I described above).
     
    #7 inane.imp, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    There's also an argument that they only trigger mines in their active, because this is the line that let's them trigger mines (triggering being seen as psuedo AROing):

    "The Perimeter Items provide ARO as they were troopers in the Active Turn."
     
  9. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    This is not true. There is no way to stop the movement of an ACTIVE model unless HE enters BtB with an enemy (Terrain excluded).

    Anyway, you are free to move your Perimeters as far as you want, as long as your opponent is ok with taking unintended advantage.
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You placs the Koala along the logical path of an enemy that wanted to Move Move. It'll lose ~1" of movement going around it. That's in the open. Narrow pathways can be exploited to stop movement entirely.
     
  11. HarlequinOfDeath

    HarlequinOfDeath Tha Taskmastaaa
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    What a strange discussion. Never played it the way and never seen it the way you are mentioning. Imo a boosting (which means in reactive turn) Perimeter weapon never triggers any other mine or Perimeter weapon. And I really think this is the intented way to play it. (@ijw / @HellLois ?)

    However, you can clear mines and Perimeter weapons in active turn by moving your Perimeter weapon into the trigger area.
     
  12. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    It makes a real statement that the community response to an oversight like this isn't

    "oh wow CB please can we get a hotfix, and look into reworking this in N4? thanks"

    and is instead:

    "YEAH WELL IN THIS CASE PLAYING BY RAW IS A D*CK MOVE SO DON'T DO IT" (FWiW, more of that on the WGC group where this was shared, but still present here)

    IMO the response is more interesting and thought-provoking than the rules issue
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @ijw has previously said that nothing RAW stops you Boosting for an infinite distance around the board.

    And my bad, THIS is actually the line that let's them trigger mines, and it works in ARO (Perimeter Weapons are figures).

    "Once on the game table, Mines must trigger when an enemy figure or Marker declares or executes an Order or ARO inside their Trigger Area."
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, I don't do this because it's a dick Move. I don't do it because it makes life WAY more complicated than was clearly intended.

    Pathing Perimeter Weapons is just painful. I've argued for teleporting them as the only reasonable way to play them that meets everyone's expectations.

    That community hotfix* has basically stood for the last few years from when I first discussed this issue in the forum.

    * IE what I describe above: check for a valid route, if it exists, Boost succeeds and remove the Koala at Resolution
     
    #14 inane.imp, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  15. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    As much of a hard-line view as it is, for anyone who plays in more than one meta this means everyone who doesn't play strictly RAW is not actually playing infinity.

    They play "almost-but-not-quite-infinity" necessitating a checklist of who plays what how before a game, or risking issues of disagreements as a result of what I can only call "dialect" (hosue rules/interpretations) cropping up.

    IMO, that ain't a good look.
     
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  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I agree. It would have been nice for this to have been resolved formally by CB when it was first raised, and I hope it is now.

    In the absence of that, I'll continue convincing any meta I come into contact with that we can dispense with pathing Perimeter Weapons for everyone's sanity.
     
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  17. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Would give more upvotes if I could, because thats hilarious.

    Yes, you will get punched in the face if you do it on the table. But RAW, you are not wrong...
     
  18. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I really like the first thing I posted


    In bold, blue and oversized text. And added that line again on my FB post (with a silly picture) and got more comments from some very angry people.

    Obviously, moving 1 million inches, triggering everything on the table, drawing a bunch of shapes while yelling “zoom zoom” is not the intended outcome of the rule.

    The obvious RAI (imo) is that Perimeter Weapon take the shortest route. But I do believe they Trigger Mines while doing so. (As explained with the rule quotations from the post earlier)
     
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  19. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    It's the instinctive reaction of many people (especially on WGC Infinity) to criticize and react harshly to anyone pointing out a mistake on CB's part. They don't like these being brought to light (because I presume they fear it leads to a slippery slope of more bad/weird rules interactions needing to be acknowledged?), and will react as such.

    My favorites were the ones saying you are wrong, while providing absolutely no citation.
     
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  20. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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