1. Can you measure a Minelayer's ZOC during deployment to ensure that a Perimeter Item is placed legally? If so, how do you do this? Like Coherency? 2. Is a Perimeter Item placed on the table at skill declaration or at the Conclusion of the Order? If the former, what happens when later in the order you measure ZOC and Discover you have illegally placed the Perimeter Item?
For Minelayer I have no idea how else you would otherwise satisfy the requirement of placing the mine in ZOC? Same as with deploying Fireteams, you can measure the ZOC of the Minelayer trooper, just as you can measure the ZOC of the Fireteam Leader to ensure coherency.
Would also like to add a question on how and when you measure whether there is an enemy camouflage Marker in range or not. Regarding number 2: The perimeter item is placed at the conclusion of the order, but whether the spot is selected at the conclusion or at declaration is tied to the unanswered question whether this is one of the details that has to be specified when the skill is declared. -- For using this practically until a ruling, I would propose that you do as such; 1. All details must be specified immediately on declaration, leaving nothing out. 2. Zone of Control of the declaring trooper may be measured when choosing the spot, because this is part of the effects and not the requirements 3. Zone of Control of the perimeter may be measured when choosing the spot, because this is part of the effects and not the requirements. 4. When choosing the spot, you are not required to measure either, however; 5. The item is lost if the spot is found to be invalid if: a. The spot is proven to be out of range of where the trooper was when deploying the item b. The spot is proven to have enemy Camouflage Markers inside the trigger area if that wasn't checked c. The spot is occupied at conclusion
My preferred solution is: Declare the use of the Short Skill during Step 1-4. Measure ZOC during Step 6. Deploy the Deployable Item during the Conclusion of the Order. This is to say I think that the fact that the rules say that you Deploy the Item at the Conclusion of the Order gives you permission to make the decision as to where you deploy it at that time. I find this less intrusive than permitting ZOC Measurement during Steps 1-4. Yes I know that this flies in the face of how Mines are played now: I also think that should change. Tl;dr The rules require that you deploy the Item at the Conclusion of the Order, choosing the location of the Item is inherently part of deploying the item. There is no need to detail where you will deploy something until you actually deploy it.
For that matter, there's nothing in the rules that says you have to choose in advance which deployable you're placing. For example, there's a Ghulam with E/M Mines and Deployable Repeaters who could declare Place Deployable, and then decide in the Conclusion whether to deploy a mine or a repeater. I don't know if that's how it works, but it would have a certain elegance to it. Like with Dodge where you decide where/whether to move at the Conclusion.
Dodge has a special timing that explicitly tells you to measure then and there, but for all other skills it's a matter of whether the intended position is part of "all details" that the order sequence requires or if it is omitted from there
I argue that "Place Deployable" also has special timing (it says deploy the thing in the Conclusion) BUT I also acknowledge that isn't what IJW has said and isn't the precedent. I just think that's the cleanest way to resolve all the issues that arise from requiring the Item to be placed at declaration but not actually deployed until Conclusion.
Yes, but arguably this is not too different from shooting pitchers which uses BS Attack. Pitchers realistically only has the active player able to force a cancellation by walking into the targeted spot using the second short skill, while placing deployables also has moves generated by Dodge able to get in the way. Also keeping in mind that allowing the placing model to decide on location after all rolls have been made means you've put a serious advantage in their court, typically the reactive player. They'll know if their trooper survived the encounter and needs the item to defend them, or if they did not and can place them in a position where it can be otherwise more annoying to deal with. They'll also know exactly whether the enemy is able to reach base contact and the equipment can be used to body block and also have a better idea if this tactic is actually necessary. By the way, with that interpretation; when does the trooper decide which equipment they place if they have several? I can easily see the interpretation that the item's spot is chosen at conclusion to also imply that which item e.g. Krit places (E/M Mine or Repeater) is also decided at that time.
I'd say type would be announced at Declaration and location at Conclusion. You need to announce what equipment you're deploying to use the skill (because the skill is associated with the Equipment due to the requirements of the skill). It also announces what equipment will be expended in the case of an Idle. So "I'm going to use Place Deployable with EM Mines" announces the required details. That gives both players enough information to make informed decisions. And yes, this interpretation favours the Reactive: which honestly I have no concerns about. It's irrelevant for Pitchers, because, as you point out Pitchers use BS Attack which functions differently: "A successful BS Roll allows players to place a Deployable Repeater Token (REPEATER) at the point of impact." You need to announce the point of impact when declaring the BS Attack in order to determine LOF and determine MODs for the roll. It's a required detail for the skill to function. Whereas you don't need to know where the Deployable is going to be placed for the skill to function (ie pass through the checks and actions at Step 5 and 6). Indeed, for perimeter Items, you don't know enough information until after Resolution (where you measure ZOC) to make an accurate determination of where you can place the Deployable.
I mean, this is no different from the question on what constitutes "all details" during a skill declaration. Is the point where you want to place the object part of "all details"? Is the location of the target of a BS Attack part of "all details"? Essentially these will have the same answer. https://infinitythewiki.com/Trooper_Activation#Order_Expenditure_Sequence All details and choices related to the execution of a Short Skill, Short Movement Skill, Entire Order Skill or ARO must be specified when it is declared. I think by now you know that I'm in favour of a very hard-line interpretation of that Important box, meaning I'm in favour of that you have to specify exactly everything necessary to resolve the skill when you declare it, so that when you get to steps 5 and 6 you have no choices to make (except for Dodge movement which is explicitly declared during the effects step and Guts which is not a skill declaration) By the way, what I meant with the Pitcher example is how losing the equipment works, not how the skills mechanically works. If someone were to walk to the location where you targeted the Pitcher, it will be lost. Similarly, if someone were to walk into the location where you targeted your Place Deplyoable skill, you lose that object. It's the loss of the object that has led people to ask these questions, in my opinion. Should a mine or a Koala be ephemeral and be able to be placed inside the silhouette of a unit, I don't think we'd have this conversation.
We still would for this one, because it's about measuring ZOC. To solve it you've had to allow ZOC measurement during steps 1-4, which is basically hard coded in as something that is not to happen (outside of Coherency, and then only at the very beginning of Step 1.2). Take a Moran: I can see using ZOC Measurement at Step 2/4 to confirm Hacking Area coverage to inform Hacking AROs. Edge case, but feasible. The reason we've wrapped up the other issue is because it's related and it'd be disingenuous to discuss this without mentioning the S2S scenario. So yes, part of the question is "is the placement of a Deployable Item a detail that's required to be decided at declaration?" but the second half is "OK, if so how do you manage the unknown information re: ZOC?" Personally, my position is that we know some details are permitted to be declared after declaration for some skills: exceptions already exist. These exceptions should be minimal and should be explicit. However, in this, and similar cases, I think that there's fewer problematic edge cases if you simply allow the decision on where Deployables are deployed to be made at Conclusion so an exception is justified.* This renders the second question - and IMO more problematic one - moot. Again though, I fundamentally agree it shouldn't be this hard to work out how to do something as simple as deploy a Koala. * Albeit that the order of Operations for Conclusion needs to be better detailed.
