Pavel Assault + Natural Born Warrior + Surprise Attack

Surprise attack is a Mod to a CC attack.

Provided you started the order in marker state, declaring a surprise attack assault is valid.

Just like Suprise Spec fire

 

Huh, that's weird. Surprise Attack is a MOD whereas Surprise Shot is a type of BS Attack.

 

I don't think as written you can apply the same logic for Surprise Attack as you do for Surprise Shot - Surprise Attack does not have CC Attack label and Assault calls for Move + CC Attack. Just like Surprise Shot, Surprise Attack is its own skill and unlike Martial Arts or Assault, it is not an automatic skill that applies a MOD.

 

So Pavel can surprise attack + assault + NBW?

I need to try it

 

according to the example, a ninja smiling under her mask must declare a CC Attack on the Orc, not declare a Surprise Attack short skill. And then, still according to rule example, she can use the CC Surprise Attack Special Skill to apply a MOD. She can also combine it with Martial Arts L3, another CC Special Skill and choose the second Level.

 

Surprise Attack is definitely a Skill. It just applies a Mod when used.

 

That example directly counteracts the skill though. Compare to MA which is an Automatic Skill while Surprise Attack is a Short Skill

It seems the difference is that Surprise Shot has the BS Attack trait, while SA has CC Special Skill, which isn't the same. It seems that it is held up by some other CC Special Skills that Specifically state they are CC Attacks (Protheion, Coup de Grace, and Scavenger, which goes further to say it is also a CdG). They are only other CCSS's that are short skills. Assault is an EO and the rest are automatic skills

While it thematically should be allowed, it isn't written the same as other rules that are obviously allowed

 

Examples are part of the rules. I'd even say they take precedence because the rule itself can be misunderstood while the example make it clear how the game is meant to be played when playing by the rules.

 

I'm sure this came up when the profile was released and it was found not to be able to assault surprise attack, cant find the thread though.

 

I was speaking colloquially as we have discussed this numerous times before and solkans palanka answer for the surprise skills applies to surprise attack as well as surprise shot

 

Got a link to that answer?

 

That's an opinion sadly (examples taking precedence I mean). We don't have any sort of hierarchy that I'm aware of. No matter how much I may agree.

 

not sure if we do anymore to be honest, @solkan

 

thats not an opinion mate, rules are rules and examples are a part of that

 

The opinion being that examples have more merit than other written rules. The way the example is written is not compatible with the way the skill is written without editing in a clause essentially making Surprise Attack a CC Attack. Protheion has that line for exmaple:

• The use of Protheion is considered a CC Attack.

 

there are other cases of rule vs rule contradictions and rules vs example contradiction. I've never seen a rule vs example case where the rule was followed but not the example.

a common case that come quickly to mind is SS1 delays, the rules says you must be attacked as a requirement, the example says it works against model that simply move+move. So there you go, a case of the example being higher in the hierarchy when a rule and an example don't say the same thing.

i'll let you present a case where the example was discarded in favor of following the rule box.

 

As I said. I wasn't aware of one. Seems solid to me

 

While Surprise Attack and Surprise Shot have similar results, they got implemented differently and there may be bizarre reasons for the differences.

Labeling the stuff in the great CC skills list:

• Assault Entire Order: Movement, CC Special Skill
• Berserk. Automatic
• Dual Wield Automatic
• Guard (Human Sphere N3). Automatic
• i-Kohl (Human Sphere N3). Automatic
• Martial Arts. Automatic
• Natural Born Warrior (Human Sphere N3) Automatic
• Poison. Automatic
• Protheion (Human Sphere N3). Short Skill/ARO. Attack, CC Special Skill *Magic bullet point making it a CC Attack
• Scavenger. Entire Order: CC Attack, CC Special Skill.
• Stealth. Automatic
• Surprise Attack. Short Skill. Attack, CC Special Skill.

The automatic stuff just happens. The stuff in the description of CC Special Skills

• They are only usable in Close Combat, so a trooper must be in base to base contact with an enemy in order to use them.

is there to satisfy Engaged:

For this reason, they can only declare CC Attack, Coup de Grâce, Dodge and those Skills which specify that they can be used in CC
​

I can't find any conclusive evidence that Surprise Attack needs to be considered a CC Attack for itself or the examples to work properly. The Stealth + Surprise Attack example manages to void choosing the MAL3 modifier row; and the first effects bullet point in I-Khol appears to be harmlessly redundant statement. And Surprise Attack doesn't have to be a CC Attack in order for the one relevant column (Opponent MOD) that it uses in the CC Special Skills chart.

Disclaimer: Support Skill Assault broke my heart. It appears to be deliberately designed to prevent various uses...

 

Also worth noting this along side as it specifically calls itself a CC Attack.