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Patsy nimbus+ in VIRD

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Sangarn, Apr 25, 2019.

  1. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    Imo nimbus+ on Patsy is 99% useless

    I've run every test possible on dice calculator, played her numerous time and never saw any use (even the combo with triangulate fire is just order waste)
    I play Patsy with a kamau HMG and nimbus+ never help to win ftf roll (also it's a risk each time you fire a grenade you can take a TO camo ARO in your face)

    In a competitive setting who can tell me who use this grenade with Patsy and how ? (with numbers and order cost ofc)

    -

    Numberzz:

    Pasy+kamauHMG+whatever HARIS VS Riotgirl ML CORE

    With useless Nimbus+:
    41%/25% 34% nothing happen

    Without:
    40%/38% 21 % nothing happen

    so you have to pay 1 order minimum to have the same chance of success
     
    #1 Sangarn, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Useless? Triangulated fire with Assault pistol burst 3 through nimbus, easily giving any target -12 MOD as well as losing their burst bonus on link teams, is useless?

    Okay, I guess..
     
  3. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    everybody talk about this "Triangulated fire with Assault pistol burst 3 through nimbus" but how many have done it ?
    That a terrible combo very expensive and you have to have a very specific positioning

    The Triangulated fire require 2 orders alone (one to go marquer and another to end your move in LoS) with the grenade it's 3 orders (4 if you miss) to build your combo that not something you do in a game of Infinity

    in most case you better go and shoot to death ppl with your 3 orders,
    you're playing panoceania not nomads: shoot first think second
     
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  4. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    But lower chance of getting hit back by that Missile Launcher.

    Also, Nimbus+ is useful when shooting Direct Teamplate Weapons through it, because even if the oponent chooses to Dodge, it suffers a -6 to do so.
     
  5. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    you don't use it often, but there are cases


    Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group - Assault Pistol vs. Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Anti-Materiel Mode)
    Active Player
    46.56% Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group inflicts 1 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Unconscious)
    14.33% Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group inflicts 2 or more wounds on Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) (Dead)

    Failures
    29.23% Neither player succeeds

    Reactive Player
    24.21% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group (Unconscious)
    9.88% Kamau Amphibious Intervention Teams (MSV 2) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group (Dead)
     
  6. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    Here's another case where it comes in handy

    Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group - Assault Pistol vs. Tankō Zensenbutai (in a 5 man link) - Missile Launcher

    8-24'' rangeband

    Active Player
    47.72% Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group inflicts 1 or more wounds on Tankō Zensenbutai (1 W)
    10.57% Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group inflicts 2 or more wounds on Tankō Zensenbutai (Unconscious)
    0.85% Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group inflicts 3 or more wounds on Tankō Zensenbutai (Dead)

    Failures
    48.00% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    4.29% Tankō Zensenbutai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group (Unconscious)
    3.76% Tankō Zensenbutai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Zulu-Cobra, Recon and Special Intervention Group (Dead)

    Often these big threats are the type of thing that you deal with in the first turn, so having to activate camo isn't something you need to consider
     
  7. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    You seem to have a bizarre view on the skill. For some reason you're treating it as if were smoke + MSV2. It isn't. You're also under the false impression that every single order can be used to shoot and never to relocate or get into position (which is untrue) anyway, so just because you used 3 orders on the combo, doesn't mean you could've used 3 orders to Move+BS attack.

    Furthermore, it's an utility option, which means it's usefull fore rare cases, mostly to reduce chance to get hurt. If you outrange a TR bot with a Kamau Sniper, you can use Patsy to impose -12 on the TR bot and be immune to return fire crits. You're complaining about an equipment in which you fundamentally seem to be using wrong.
     
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  8. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    I can't match those numbers in the calculator, what range and cover situation are you using?

    This.

    Also, try combining a 'free' throw of a couple of Nimbus Plus Grenades with Direct Template Weapon attacks (with -6 to Dodge) from an Auxbot, or a Cutter/Croc/Kamau/Zulu Cobra putting the opponent on -12 without needing to be in marker state first.

    Then there's the Montesa. If the target is in a Nimbus Plus zone and gets charged, they have a choice of:
    CC at -3 from Martial Arts,
    Dodge at -9 from Martial Arts + Poor Vis,
    BS at -9 from Martial Arts + Poor Vis + Mimetism (assuming +3 for range).
    Depending on what ARO the target chooses, you can also consider hitting them with a Boarding Shotgun on BS13 to catch other targets, who will also be suffering the -6 for Poor Vis.
     
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  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    The biggest issue with Patsy is that other Factions (Tohaa) get Makauls who really benefit from them. In VIRD you reaaaally have to look for a situation where it's more than an accidential benefit.
    You kinda screw your Order Pool to get the one platform you didn't want a SMG on (a BS14 solo HI) in order to do an expensive trick you probably don't need because you're PanO.
    Taking an extra EB/ZC/Croc and maybe an Order or just going for the neat Core Linked Orc HMG to make people sad the PanO way without any setup requirements.

    Really not a fan of TF through Nimbus either. Doesn't hit hard enough to take out a HI, has trouble punching even through ARM1 LI and the bare minimum to set up mediocre odds to maybe kill something annoying is two assuming you never fail a Nimbus chugg and are almost in position with the ZC Sensor to use it.

    If you want a unicorn like that I'd honestly just consider taking an EB Paramedic and try for a Wild Parrot + BS Attack instead. Easier to set up and is proper scary for anything you can't just point and shoot at with a HMG anyway.
     
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  10. xammy

    xammy Keeper of Random Facts and Strong Opinions

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    @Teslarod I think your example of the EB paramedic vs TF + Nimbus don't really line up with what they are for. There are plenty of frustrating troops you will need to deal with who are 1 wound models and TF + Nimbus is just another avenue for dealing with them. I think you're right that applying this solution to the wrong target is a big mistake.

    What I have found is I often have a sensor ZC in my list and I often take the Patsy haris. I don't take them for TF + Nimbus, but in a pinch they are useful.
     
  11. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    The name of the topic is "Patsy nimbus+ in VIRD" VIRD doesn't have many template
    no auxbot, cutter ? do you play PanO ? Cutter doesn't have anymore template since N2
    croc ? kamau ? zulu ? zero direct template except mines for the croc (no one play any croc in VIRD we use zulus)
    We have only 3 direct template on 3 low-played profiles in VIRD croc's mines, squalo's zapper and montesa's chain colt

    The montesa trick is legit BUT if you are able to fire a eclipse grenade on a target to get her charged (0-8 inch) you can shoot the hell out of it with a 14+3 BS SMG so ... why launch a montesa ? (lol montesa bikes)

    the -12 doesn't work against power ARO pieces, TR bot are not played as ARO piece against VIRD (best shooter of the game sectorial) if they are: you're playing against a new player
    and if you have trouble to kill a TR bot as a PanO player ^^ go play nomads

    again I'm talking about competitive setting no fun play
    a basic grenade would been better than this (expensive) thing

    My exemple is what I play: a Haris Patsy with kamau HMG VS a Riot girl ML in core with and without nimbus+ all in favorable situations +3 range and cover
     
    #11 Sangarn, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  12. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Quick edit to respond to Sangarn's most recent post:
    I'm a competitive player. I've used VIRD in two satellites since their release (so 4 army lists in total.) I used Patsy Haris for two of those four army lists.

    Read below for notes on using VIRD's direct templates with Patsy. It's because VIRD has so few templates that makes the Nimbus Plus more helpful.

    And I think the Cutter reference is about the Cutter still hitting on 9s while virtually guaranteeing the enemy is -12. Not about using a Direct Template weapon.

    Okay, here's my original post:

    A couple of things about how Nimbus Plus fits into VIRD.

    VIRD's biggest deficiency (there aren't many, but this is a big one) is very few Direct Template Weapons (I include antipersonnel mines and Parrots in this assessment as well.) They're all very good platforms, but they are very few. Nimbus Plus not only helps protect those Direct Template platforms, but also makes them more effective via -6 for the enemy to Dodge. The biggest weakness of the Wild Parrot, or the Peacemaker Auxbot, is that you only have 1 of them. If they fail to make a strong impact in turn you commit them, you throw away a really valuable tool. This is doubly true since they're both forward units, meaning you probably aren't Reloading that Parrot, or Repairing that Auxbot.

    Patsy's Nimbus really helps address this. I particularly like pairing Nimbus Plus with antipersonnel mines too. Those mines become really lethal when they almost can't be Dodged. I like this particularly for units like Makauls, who have such a good chance of beating a f2f roll with 2 Eclipse Smoke rolls on 16s. That's a really dangerous tactical dilemma for VIRD, because there's no way to follow up against Makauls once their smoke goes down. We can no longer shoot them, we can't beat them in CC, which means a successful Smoke Toss by a Makaul means they've basically saved themselves and preserved their position on the table for an entire round. That's terrifying. But antipersonnel mine + Eclipse Plus + Burst 5 HMG is one of the safest ways to prevent a game-ending Makaul rush.

    A couple things on Patsy:

    She's the Joan of Arc of Haris Teams. By this, I mean that she's a decent combatant, but that's not really the main reason you're taking her. Instead, you're paying about 18 points per Order (remember, she essentially is worth two Regular Orders due to NCO.) Then she's running a Specialist and a Gunner somewhere critical, using her Order Efficiency to get them there. Once they're up the field, she can put herself in harm's way to save the mission. She's a Burst 4 SMG. Burst 2 Flash Pulse. Can do a big range of Classified Objectives. And (probably her most universal application) she's helped deliver a +1 Burst Kamau to a location the enemy wasn't expecting.

    Now, I typically dislike Haris Teams. I think they're a trap during list building. I think that buying 2 bodies just to give +1 Burst to a heavy weapon is typically a mistake.

    But Patsy has the added benefit of doing a pile of Classifieds, being able to Dodge through mines / Koalas with high PH, good ARM and 2 Wounds, and the actual composition of her Haris team is very flexible. I don't use her every list (remember, Haris teams are a trap) but I've also won games on the premise that noone wants to see a Kamau HRL or HMG break out of the DZ, get away from the Core link they're typically chained to, and start running amok in the midfield while also doing Classifieds, sweeping away the mines that Zulu Cobras, EBs and Croc Men hate to face, and generally being a multi-faceted pain in the ass.

    And hey, just to bring things full-circle, maybe she'll even throw a Nimbus Plus or two and set up some useful high-probability exchanges for a Peacemaker or Zulu Cobra. As with most targetless grenades, you don't want to stop your team and say "this order, I'm throwing grenades." Instead, you want to be constantly maneuvering to your destination, and when you end up with a spare Short Skill (probably because you stopped at a corner to avoid walking into LoF, or you're headed for an objective and you're already close enough to reach it in your next Order...)

    That's when you throw Nimbus. You keep it efficient by using spare Short Skills. You don't allocate a pile of Orders just to deploy it.
     
    #12 barakiel, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Don't think I know many scary 1W troops who aren't linked. Linked Troops don't like getting Isolated and they have to either risk that or Dodge and a HMG has pretty good odds vs a Dodge.
    We're not talking about a Sukeul ML, because you can beat that with conventional tools. My issue with the examples people bring for the use of Nimbus+ include spending 70 points on a combo that is situational, hard to set up and not even optimal in most cases.
    If we had linked DTWs that could really abuse Nimbus the way Makauls can (splitting B against 2 targets with no downsides) I'd be all for the use of Nimbus, because that is a really good application for it.
    Would you rather spend an Order to buff a Peacemaker with Assisted Fire or set him up with Nimbus+ to make the HFT better? One requires a Fusilier Hacker and works for the whole turn while the other is hard to set up reliably.
    Most problematic engagements that people suggest Nimbus+ & TF for could be solved much more comfortably by walking a Link with a Kamau Sniper or Orc HMG to exact the same place as the ZC Sensor in less Orders with better odds to win. That full Core Link costs less or the same as a Patsy Haris without the ZC on top.

    Having options is something I'm all for. Look at that Squalo Zapper, it's marvellous how much that DTW does for a basic TAG. Adding a real sledgehammer to his Arsenal forces Dodges from hard targets which the MultiHMG or Heavy Pistol can easily oppose. Way more utility than a HFT thanks to having 3 options available. You could run him in a Duo with Patsy to make that Zapper super scary - but the Zapper remains a sidearm, more of a deterrent that forces your opponent to pick in between two bad choices than something you build a Strategy around.

    The given examples all suggest taking 47%ers after a 2 Order Setup. That's a horrible turnout. The first one even is up against 24% to die in return and both suggested targets are 2W ARO pieces that will be happy to soak your 6 Orders do down them even if things go your way in that scenario and you get at least slightly above average rolls.
     
    #13 Teslarod, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @Teslarod
    I do agree, based on experience, that the cost of Patsy + Haris + Direct Template Weapon is too expensive to be universally helpful. Where I really like it is in setpiece midfield battles like Acquisition, Armory, Engineering Deck, etc. where you know there's a concentrated space, fairly close to your DZ, where you're going to see a ton of concentrated resilience. VIRD doesn't have the CC, resilience or close-range chops to slug it out in an objective room in a traditional fashion. So being able to arrange Nimbus Plus + AP mines + Auxbot flamethrower gives VIRD a setpiece tool.

    If Nimbus Plus wanted to have greater application, we would have gotten the SMG + 2x Nanopulser ORC that I was really hoping to see as a filler profile. Or perhaps a Kamau FO + Auxbot. Something that, as you say, leverages the same efficiency as the Makaul Triad.
     
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  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Haven't really figured out VIRD's solution for Objective rooms yet. The best solution that is native to Vird has been to walk some Helots in Marker State into the room and help them out with a couple Mines. Takes forever for your Opponent to Discover+Shoot them one by one from his side of the door. He really can't walk in there and tank a Mine and 2 SMGs to the face. From there about everything seems to work. Park a Squalo or HI in SF at the Door on your side, send a Wildparrot in there, add a Jammer for fun... VIRD looked pretty bad at doing these missions at first but boy does moving your fishy turret boys help.
    Without them a Smoke in the room or opposing Mines can be problematic, but Helots aren't really bothered by things that make your Crocs or ZCs shiver in their boots. Thanks to being basically in SF and Camo at the same time for free, while having a template option and remaining utterly expendable they're basically made for holding Objective Rooms.


    /edit: double Nanopulse SMG Orc sounds kinda broken... alas upon closer revision Orcs indeed would need a batshit insane loadout like that to be worth it past a token HMG in a Fusilier+Kamau Link in VIRD.
     
    #15 Teslarod, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  16. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    My justification is that it's no more insane than the SMG / Chain Rifle Wu Ming :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    Remember too, this idea was conceived at a time when I wasn't expecting Mixed Links or Wildcard for a PanO Sectorial. I thought that if you were fielding an ORC in a link team, you were paying for 3-5 of them. So they desperately needed something absurdly cheap and absurdly effective to offset that steep point cost.

    Now, although I like having access to Nimbus Plus as a tool, I certainly don't use it that often. When I do use it, it's very good. But Tohaa are still the undisputed kings of the Nimbus Plus combo, probably followed by CA/Shasvastii, with VIRD trailing a bit.

    Edit:
    Should have said this sooner. That Eclipse Plus is much better in Vanilla. A bit expensive, but NCO is nice, and Vanilla has much better access to template weapons.
     
    #16 barakiel, Apr 25, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  17. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    As Barakiel identified, I was referring to the Peacemaker. And like Barakiel I was including Mines, but should have said so.

    There are a bunch of issues with this. The first is that Targetless means that Patsy can throw the Nimbus Plus to catch a 'target' for the Montesa without drawing LoF to the enemy trooper. The second is that against troopers with any visual MODs the Montesa through Nimbus Plus is on substantially better odds than Patsy shooting with her SMG, even with the Burst bonus.

    Taking a typical semi-elite skirmisher like a Shrouded with Boarding Shotgun - which we'll all see a lot of, because that's the one with Dazer and Minelayer.

    PanO causes damage/nothing happens/enemy causes damage

    Patsy SMG vs Shrouded BSG (all in cover and within 8"):
    47/34/19%

    Montesa MA1 vs Shrouded BSG (without Nimbus Plus):
    78/14/9%

    Montesa MA1 vs Shrouded BSG (with Nimbus Plus):
    86/9/5%

    If it's a TO or ODD trooper it goes even more in the Montesa's favour as he stays on the same odds but Patsy gets worse. For example for a Malignos BSG she's down to 35/40/24. The real kicker is a trooper with visual MODs in Suppressive Fire - the Montesa in Nimbus Plus is forcing -12BS so most troopers will already have to drop Suppressive Fire just to try and get a roll.

    Then something has gone wrong somewhere.

    Kamau HMG Haris vs Riot Grrl Missile Launcher Core link
    40/19/41%

    Kamau HMG Haris vs Riot Grrl Missile Launcher Core (with Nimbus Plus) link
    41/10/27%

    The odds of causing damage stay pretty static, but the odds of suffering damage drop substantially.


    Just to repeat - it's not necessarily something you're spending extra Orders on, it's for those times when a second Move doesn't gain you much when advancing anyway.
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yes, I should have spelled that out more clearly. TO + Poor Vis + Cover for -15 before range and Fireteam MODs.
     
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  19. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    thx for your input your posts was exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to get when starting this topic
    I forgot about peacemaker (I never played it) and I don't play any croc/montesa so let's say it's why I have no use for the nimbus

    but I'm still not sold on nimbus+ i feel I'm paying for an expensive toy that I don't need

    AP mines ? What ? :p
     
  20. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Anti Personnel Mines.