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OSSSSSS Lieutenants and LoL vulnerability

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Solar, Dec 17, 2018.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    OS has no cheap or easily proliferated LTs, seemingly by design. Unlike Fusiliers, who are 10pt 0 SWC LTs, or even Alguaciles, 10pt 1 SWC LTs, your cheapest LT in OS is a Deva, and how many Devas are you going to take to be decoys? If you can fit Shakti and a Dakini link with a Deva Sensor you're doing well with hiding your LT in OS... there's two options!

    0 SWC Chain of Command definitely helps, but is rather obvious and the Shukra is not cheap. Do you find it mandatory? Do you feel like your LT being assassinated is a problem in OS or are they suitably tough that even when known, they're okay? Do you think this is a weakness, or not? Do you play against loads of Oniwabans and take two LT options and CoC as minimum or does it never come up? I'm finding this is the most pressing list building element in OS so your input will be very welcome!
     
  2. Philamilapeed

    Philamilapeed Totally not a Speculo
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    I've had relatively few games with OSS so far, but I do find the Lt situation troublesome. I feel forced to take a Shukra every single time because there's no effective way to hide or decoy the Lt.
     
  3. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It does feel like Vulnerable Lt.s are a thing CB wants to bring back. Ikari, nu-MO, Onyx, and OSSSSSSSS all seem to suffer it.
     
  4. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I think that it's just like Aleph and Steel Phalanx: don't try to take a hidden Lt, but rather take a strong Lt and play it.

    Granted, we don't have cheap Lt options, and especially cheap Lt options with many potential decoys (ex like fusilier)
    But on the other hand we have very powerful lieutenants. Lt that won't come down that easily. Lt that can make good use of their Lt order. And we have a rather cheap CoC option. So no, i dont feel like we are specially vulnerable to it - especially when we have Lt immune to E/M and isolation !

    I personnaly don't rate shukra Lt very high - too weak for a Lt in our army (but perfect for a CoC).
    Asura Lt2 are very strong.
    YaduS/Shakti are sturdy and immune to isolation
    Deva are not that expensive for a WIP 15 NWI lt, and can have either a HFT bot or sensor. Sensor is a good way to safely use their Lt order.
    Marut is, well the Marut.

    We have good Lt, it's just a matter of using them while still protecting them.
     
  5. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It seems like people are finding what I am then, in OS obvious LT is obvious therefore take a good one and use it.

    I'm going to a tournament and one of the missions is firefight, which has killing LTs as an important element. Also if I come across JSA, Haqq or Hassassins this will be a concern.
     
  6. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    Then you can also opt for a dasyu Lt. While 2 SWC is problematic for a combi wielder, his marker state will add another layer of protection over his NWI before one can kill him.
     
  7. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It's definitely a thought. 2 SWC though!!
     
  8. Erbent

    Erbent Well-Known Member

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    I've switched to OSS after about 3 years of plaing vnilla CA and about half a year of a break from infinity, and as of now played roughly 10 games with OSS lists, oly one of those was with spammy list of 16-18 orders, but that's not really my preferred style of play. Mainly I run single combat group lists, most of the time the Asura HD+ LT2 was my choice of lt, from my experience she doesn't really need a CoC in a list, she won't be an attacking model in an early game, can protect herself just about right from most threats, the only thing that is really-really threatening to her is Impersonators, and with some clever deployment and overlapping aro's you can semi-reliably counter those. very agressive KHD attack is generally hard against OSS lists with strong aro presence, and most of KHD's are only 1W and 0/3 BTS, so Asura can sucker punch those to death and take a couple of wounds, though an ideal setup against potential strong KHD runs would be to use 1 lt order to buff a REM and a second one to put on cybermask. With a spitfire loadout I'm not sure yet about CoC, it is definetly a must if you're expecting to play this version of Asuras agressively, but at that point I'm not sure if it is worth it to spend whole 25 points on CoC, but with 15+ order lists and Counterintelligence it should be okay. With Maruts I only had one LI game of supplies against vanilla haqqislam, but I took first turn and Al-Djabel failed his deployment roll, so my usual strategy of getting a tag to objectives, shooting aro pieces dead, grabbing a supply box and retreating to my deployment zone worked pretty well, even though Marut got critted with total controll I rolled decent dodges on aro and only lost one dakini to it, command tokening it out of POS state and sweeping the rest of dangerous models, lack of POS immunity is definetly a thing to remember for me, but usually a good deployment and resource management can get you out of LoL relatively unscathed, add to it that most of the time when you lost your big MBT having much orders won't really help, I'd not run shukras with Marut for now. And now about Shukra lt - it seems pretty good, but I just can't stand paying almost 30 points for a 1W lt to sit in deployment in fear of AD/IMP/Squalo lgl, it sure can work and gives you Strategos L1, but again just not my cup of tea, biometric visor helps against IMP, but generally chances of survival are not much better, so I'd say shukra lt is meta-dependant. Deva sensor lt is a usual safe lt pick for most of vanilla aleph lists I see, and you can pop some sniffers in a midfield and sensor on 21s while being pretty safe, and with NWI and a combi you can make some last-ditch efforts of killing stuff on 3d turn. Yadu and Shakti seem fine, but for me they're just neither here nor there, you want to attack with them, but they are not as good at it as Asuras or Marut, and not as cheap as Deva or Shukra, but seem pretty good, espescially a Yadu lt for Hunting Party. On a final note - Dasyu lt maaybe can compete with Asuras/Maruts in decapitation and the likes, digging out TO marker from a rooftop is pretty hard, but those 2 swc are rough. still viable if you go for a full-on shasvastii type of list with maxing out all tour camo and posthumans, it can definetly throw off some people, since the most common lists for OSS seem to be to get about 16 orders with dakini link, posthumans and support.

    P.S. and about Maruts, I think the preception of it being "bad" in OSS is overrated, smoke is great and all that, but most aro's nowdays seem to be either a fireteam or a camo/TO snipers/ML's, against fireteams smoke doesn't help all that much, and against solo aro units Marut does pretty good on its own, and having to spend regullar orders to throw around smoke from myrmidons feels kind of like wasting orders to me. And an arguement about "but what OSS brings to Maruts compared to vanilla?" should be the other way around, because Maruts gives OSS an option to not be completely locked down by a TO sniper on an open table, pushing out of your deployment with only MSV2 spitfires and buffed Dakini isn't always gonna be a good option, so I think Maruts is a pretty good choice for some table and mission setups, and you can think of a list in terms of building a 200 - 20pts 9 order list + Maruts as an attack support.
     
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  9. entropolous

    entropolous Active Member

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    Another thing to consider with Shakti is she has a KHD, so can cybermask herself for another layer of protection if needed.
     
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  10. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Well let's look at a simple list that does a decent job of potentially hiding your LT. |


    Operations Subsection of the S.S.S.
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    DEVA (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    SHAKTI Hacker (Killer Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Sucker Punch) Mk12, E/Marat / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 40)
    YADU Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, E/Marat, Drop Bears (Throwing Weapon) / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36)
    YADU (NCO) HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 41)
    NAGA (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 27)
    GARUDA Tacbot Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4
    PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    PROXY Mk.1 Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army



    3 possibles (I left out the Shukra as it telegraphs due to Strategos and CoC is doubly a penalty for the mission) and plenty of orders to play with. Shakti is a bit of a weak link as she is a valuable target for the mission due to being a specialist even if not the LT, but her durability combined with the Mk1 Doctor and Yudbot is solid. It would be tempting to move the Haris into midfield and then cybermask her while the other two go into suppression to attempt some subterfuge.
     
    Solar likes this.
  11. The Revanchist

    The Revanchist Active Member

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    ALEPH, in general, has an Obvious LT issue. Mostly that comes down to the cost of the units, but in OperationS it's also the relatively few units that can be Lieutenants.

    I don't think that Chain of Command is necessary by any means, and as much as I like the Shukra, I don't run one often. For me, that's because I mainly play a single Combat Group.

    I've pretty consistently been playing the Asura Hacker LT2, and she is hard to bring down for most opponents. I tend to play a little dangerously in that regard, but I find Loss of Lieutenant forces some creativity :) .

    The Marut is something I only recently played, as I've been trying to make my way around to all the cool new toys that OperationS has had to offer. It worked out very well and had a dominating presence. So, I agree that Smoke is certainly not a requirement for the Marut to be useful.
     
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  12. Fathoym

    Fathoym Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I like everything the Shukra brings and so I bring him just for his toolkit - CoC is just icing on top.

    I also play pretty exclusively active Lieutenant options and keep him hidden away, unless he's on anti-Fiday duty.
     
  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Occurs to me that Sforza could hide as several Shukras and that'd almost be better than taking an actual CoC guy.
     
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  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Well, until the start of your first turn when you put the holoecho marker down.

    Now, taking Sforza and a Shukra to put down 4 of him all within ZoC of each other...
     
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  15. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Could even drop him to Holo1 to disguise.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    That's what I'm thinking, Shukra LT, Sforza disgusted as three Shukra LTs, you know one of them is real, but which one?
     
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