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Order expenditure sequence question

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Kwisatz Haderach, Oct 4, 2020.

  1. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    So, in our community we got a very hot topic for discussion - new order expenditure sequence and especially, step 5 of ARO validation.

    As far as we understood it, if your reactive model gets and opportunity to ARO (due to LoF or ZoC) you can declare whatever ARO you want. And you have to check if its legal during step 5.

    For example, somebody moves in your ZoC but without LoF without stealth (in front lof blocking terrain in front arc of your reactive model) you can declare ARO - BS attack. And if that active model will move again you can ARO with BS attack.

    Or you can react with placing a deployable .
    Do we got this right? Thats intended by the rules?
     
    SubOctavian likes this.
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    No, Step 5 is when you check if you actually had an ARO.

    For example, Angus is pretty sure Bob just moved into his ZoC but out of LoF. BS Attack and Place Deployable aren't valid as both require LoF to be declared. Angus decides to Declare Dodge instead.

    At step 5 you measure to see how close Bob came to Angus during the Order. If it turns out Bob never came within 8" then the Dodge becomes an Idle instead.
     
  3. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    Here is the full text of a order expenditure sequence

    1. Activation: The Active Player declares which Trooper will activate.
    1.1. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise
    marks as spent, the Order he uses to activate the Trooper.
    1.2. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill
    of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use.
    If movements are declared, the player measures where the Trooper can move,
    chooses the route, and places the Trooper at the final point of its movement.
    2. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks Lines of Fire to the Active
    Trooper, and declares AROs. Troopers are not forced to declare the AROs, but if a
    Trooper can declare an ARO and fails to do so, the chance to declare an ARO is lost.
    3. Declaration of the Second Skill: The Active Player declares the second Short Skill
    of the Order, if applicable.
    If movements are declared, the player measures where the Trooper can move,
    chooses the route, and places the Trooper at the final point of its movement.
    4. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks Lines of Fire to the Active
    Trooper from those Troopers who didn’t declare an ARO before, and can declare any
    new AROs that are available.
    5. ARO Check: Check that each Trooper that declared an ARO has been in one
    of the situations that makes their ARO declaration valid. If they have not, they are
    considered to have declared an Idle.

    There is nothing here , that states that your ARO during step 2 has to be valid. In fact you check your ARO requirements during step 5 , to see if you've met them or not.

    I think we need @ijw or somebody from CB stuff to get into that.

    Also there is a screenshot of @ijw on some part of this topic, but i am afraid its pulled out of context.
     

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  4. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    There was several replies from ijw, that logically confirm that with BS attack it's not possible, because it requires target on lof for declaration. Check them out, sorry, I did not save the links when I was reading yesterday, but they are rather recent.

    Also, when researching the question myself yesterday, I found ZoC rule on page 25 which explicitly say that troopes in ZoC without lof can be reacted only by dodge, reset and no-lof skills.

    Additionally, total cover definition says you cant declare (!) BS attack when a target is in it.

    It's a shame CB did not manage to put this in one place, but looks like it's there, and it's rather logical.
     
  5. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    UPD: a good part of my local group keeps insisting that because of how order expenditure is worded, despite of other rules (BS attack, ZoC, total cover), you can declare BS attack as ARO even if at 1st short skill there is no valid target. Our discussion has reached a stalemate, so a precise and direct clarification from CB staff (and ideally, a rule update) would be appreciated.

    At this point I'm not evaluating anything, I just want full clarity: when you declare an ARO as you suppose an enemy is in your ZoC, but you dont have LoF at your declaration, can you declare BS attack? At that point, my group says it will be "as judge decides", which is sub optimal for a competitive game rules.

    @HellLois , we will cease fire and wait for the official clarification, which will be much appreciated. Thank you!
     
  6. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    We are in same boat. Waiting for official response on that.
     
  7. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    I'd love for ARO declarations in Step 2 to ignore the Active Turn requirements for things like BS Attack and for those to be checked / resolved only in Step 5.

    In this way we would avoid the whole nasty N3 interaction of "ARO baiting" when movement out of LoS (around a corner, inside Smoke, etc.) forced you into suboptimal ARO like Change Facing and then allowed the enemy to Move into Engaged with you, without risk.

    You should be able to say "I will Shoot whatever comes around the corner / out of the Smoke" and Idle only if it doesn't.

    It seems to me that was the intention of the Sequence design and that it simply wasn't cleaned up of all the interactions with the wording of other rules which contain language still relevant to N3 roots (BS Attack ARO requiring LoF at declaration instead explicitly at resolution, etc.).
     
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  8. SubOctavian

    SubOctavian Well-Known Member

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    I dont agree, as I believe while curing a specific issue (which is subjective in the first place), it creates a lot of unnecessary (also subjective of course) interactions. However, our personal views may be valid for different reasons, while the main issue is uncertainty in the rules. I can live with any decision despite of some rant , if it is clearly presented in the rules. What I don't want to have is different interpretation in each game.
     
  9. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Could you specify? I can't see how "I declare X and in resolution step 5 see if it became legal at any point" does that?
     
  10. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    You can shoot with MSV at Albedo troopers.
     
  11. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    So you declare "BS Attack" and in step 5 it turns out it was an Idle, because you have MSV and the target has Albedo. What's the exact problem?
     
  12. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    This keeps coming up. It's already been answered by ijw. In general you can declare AROs that are invalid at the time of declaration, but BS attack is an exception. You can't declare BS attack if you don't have LoF at the time of declaration.
     
  13. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    So you can still get ARO baited, that's a shame :|
     
  14. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    so now we can drop the mine or make cc atack on aro? this is realy shit in fan
     
  15. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    Throwing a pebble to distract the guard to kill them silently with a knife seems to be the oldest trick in the book of stealth PC-Games and movies...

    That does not make it right, just less unbelievable.
     
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  16. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    I have no idea what you're referring to, but I'll try to answer your question. As I understand it, yes you can declare Place Deployable as an ARO without LoF. However, if the active trooper doesn't move into LoF with their second short skill, the Place Deployable skill will fail at resolution, you will lose the mine and it won't be placed. So it will rarely be a good idea to declare that skill, but you can if you want to.

    CC attack is, as far as I know, an unanswered question. It may be subject to the same exception as BS attack since it can involve splitting burst in some cases.
     
  17. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Considering that there aren't any benefits to declaring a premature CC Attack or BS Attack, why is that even a relevant question? In order to lose out on ARO, the reactive trooper has to have a valid ARO to declare.

    Things break down into three cases:
    - The reactive player is in ZoC hell, where they can't be sure whether they have their ARO triggered.
    - "I'm a fool who took a hidden deployment lieutenant and went second": See the other damned thread.
    - There's no reason or benefit to declaring a premature ARO in any other case. If you declare an ARO that uses a disposable item, you'll use up that item when it gets converted to Idle.

    And if you're in the situation where you're declaring a premature CC Attack because you're reacting to the dreaded "Move(or Idle)-Move to engage the scary model and then do nothing to it for the rest of the turn" order, I'm sure the active player will feel terrible taking their consolation normal attack rolls for their BS Attack or hacking attack. :thinking_face:
     
  18. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    They won't get a BS attack since they're out of LoF. In the classic ARO bait we all know and love from N3, the active troop first Moves/Idles just on the other side of a corner to force an ARO declaration without LoF, then for its second skill, Moves around the corner into base-to-base.

    _If_ it's possible to declare CC attack prematurely, then that tactic no longer works. The active troop declares Move/Idle outside LoF, the intended victim declares CC attack. Now if the active troop's second skill is a Move around the corner into B2B, they suffer a free CC attack from the victim. They can't choose to instead shoot for their second short skill, because they're still outside LoF. (If the active troop instead moves into LoF on their first skill, then the victim will shoot at them.)

    So I do think there will be some cases where it will matter whether you can declare CC attack prematurely (like most AROs) or whether you can't (like BS attack).
     
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  19. Kwisatz Haderach

    Kwisatz Haderach Zelenograd Shasvastii
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    You can declare BS attack with your kamau sniper against trooper with albedo or in a white noise. If they shoot with second skill kamau will shoot albedo trooper.
     
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  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit SecUnit

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    No, you can't. Per ijw's ruling, you can only declare BS attack if you have LoF at the time of declaration. The Kamau doesn't have LoF due to the albedo/white noise.

    If outside ZoC, Kamau just declares no ARO. Then if the concealed unit shoots, Kamau can shoot back per returning fire through a zero-visibility zone.

    If inside ZoC, Kamau has an ARO initially so will have to settle for Dodge. If he tries to wait, he loses his ARO.
     
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