1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Optional cancellation of Camouflaged state.

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Foxbringer, Apr 29, 2018.

Tags:
  1. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    174
    Interesting question appeared in my local community.
    In http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflage_and_Hiding_(CH)#CH:_LEVEL_2._CAMOUFLAGE written, that
    CH: LEVEL 2. CAMOUFLAGE AUTOMATIC SKILL is Optional
    • During the game, allows the user to be in the Camouflaged state.

    And Optional. The use of this Special Skill or Equipment is optional and can be waived.

    So what happens if I don't want to use it anymore? Can I cancell Camouflaged state at the beginning of an order(because I am not allowed to be in it anymore)?
     
    #1 Foxbringer, Apr 29, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
  2. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    1,292
    The use of the skill is Optional. You may choose to deploy as a Camo token or as a trooper. Once you have made that choice, you now follow the rules of the state.
    Camo marker state cancellation clauses are as follows:
    • The Camouflaged trooper declares a Skill other than Cautious Movement or a Short Movement Skill that does not require a Roll (except Alert).
    • Following the previous, the Camouflaged trooper declares a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot.
    • The Camouflaged trooper enters base to base contact with a model.
    • The Camouflaged trooper is successfully Discovered.
    • The Camouflaged trooper receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit, without previous Discovery (by means of an Intuitive Attack, a Template Weapon whose target was a nearby model, etc.)
    • The Camouflaged trooper becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state In either case, the trooper's CH Level is downgraded to CH: Mimetism. The trooper recovers his original CH Level when the Retreat!situation is canceled. However, the trooper does not revert to the Camouflaged state. To regain the Camouflaged state, the trooper must follow the Activation rules.
     
    Wolf and Foxbringer like this.
  3. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    174
    Yes, of cource there is no reference in cancellation about voluntarily cancellation. But I can choose not to use this skill. And the main point is that I am NOT allowed to be in Camouflaged state.
     
  4. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    884
    Likes Received:
    1,292
    Right, so, if you choose not to use the skill, you don't enter camo state in the first place.

    On that note, WHY would you want to do this?
     
  5. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    174
    I found one possible situation. For example there is Camo marker near objective(Shrouded). And I want to discover it with my Naga, but I can see it only after moving.

    If I am in marker state, he will say "delay". But if not, I can discover it in the same order without ARO, if he say "Idle".
     
  6. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    174
    Did you mean that I choose to use this skill at the beginning of the game? (And can't turn it off during the game.(But other optional skills could be turned off during the game))

    P.S. And I want to prove to my opponent that we can't voluntarily cancell Camo state, too. But I can't find the exact answer.
     
  7. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,686
    Likes Received:
    5,510
    its an old question, If you google it you'll find the answer.

    Which was I believe that you can, but you obviously dont get the benefits of camo for that order.

    http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/31050-solved-auto-reveal-a-camo/

    http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/47571-turning-off-camo-and-resulting-modifiers/

    Doesnt get much clearer than that

    "Optional Skills and Equipment can be turned on/off at the beginning of any Order or ARO declaration, unless otherwise stated in the particular rules for the Skill or Equipment"
    -palanka
     
    AdmiralJCJF and Spleen like this.
  8. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    630
    Having a skill and being in that state are not linked. For instance you can be in impersonation without the skill as you are a hacker with cybermask.

    So saying that you can cancel the state by canceling the skill is incorrect as there is no where in the rules that state this logic of connection exists.

    However, the reason why people say you can is because palanka states you could voluntarily exit the state. He gave no justification. You can do it soley because a rules authority said so, and thats it.

    Sorry, but thats the reason why you can at the end. Personally i dont like that reason and personally strive to not drop it voluntarily, using dodge or discover are great legal ways to exit the state without palankas rulings and at worst it costs me only 1 order more. Average is same as dropping voluntarily.
     
  9. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,686
    Likes Received:
    5,510
    this is why context is important,

    The question is specific to dropping the CAMO marker state, the answer is yes you can.

    "I've found myself in this situation many times now: I have a camo or camo TO (marker or hidden) and I need to reveal it (for mission purposes, like controlling a zone, a objective)."
    -King of Squid

    "Optional Skills and Equipment can be turned on/off at the beginning of any Order or ARO declaration, unless otherwise stated in the particular rules for the Skill or Equipment"
    -palanka
     
    inane.imp and toadchild like this.
  10. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    630
    Skills and equipment can be optional. Can you find any sentence that says a state like unconscious, immobilized or camouflaged can be optional. Can you find any section that says that disabling a skill or having the skill at all is required to be in any given state? I say this because you can be in an impersonation state without the impersonation skill.

    That's why i said what i did. Palanka said we can leave it, so that is what happens. I disagree that the statement is allowed in the rules and instead can understand that it is allowed from a rules authority.

    And on a side topic, if the cost of dropping it voluntarily is to lose the mod defense, ill continue to use discover instead of idle (when i wish to idle-shoot) so i keep my defense.
     
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,686
    Likes Received:
    5,510
    see the links and quotes above
     
  12. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    630
    I have, and palanka makes the statement same as yours yet doesnt quote the why. Camoflagued state has no referencing to requiring the skill be active.

    Lol, But at this point the conversation is quite irrelevant. The answer is easy:

    Yes you can drop voluntarily, palanka has stated as such, it hasnt been added to errata but is what it is.

    If u do so, you only have mimitism for that order instead of potentially TO's -6.

    It is probably better to get out of camo out of sight from enemy models or instead declare discover for your first short skill instead of idle so the target cannot hold and still keep the -6 (if TO, otherwise ignore this point as mimitism is equvilent to regular camo for mods)
     
    sorniak likes this.
  13. Wolf

    Wolf https://youtube.com/@StudioWatchwolf

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2017
    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    969
    Yes, this is the Rules sub-forum; let’s please be clear about our sources. I could find this summary, but not the original statements from @ijw and @Palanka.

    http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/47605-cancelling-optional-skills/
     
  14. Spleen

    Spleen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    414
    I found the original statements...

     
  15. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    809
    Likes Received:
    630
    Ninja'd with what spleen stated.
     
    daboarder likes this.
  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,686
    Likes Received:
    5,510
    Google ;) amazing tool
     
  17. Spleen

    Spleen Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    281
    Likes Received:
    414
    nah, just reading the thread
     
    daboarder likes this.
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    6,040
    Likes Received:
    7,177
    It's difficult when you have 2/3rds of the posters on ignore.
     
  19. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2018
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    174
    Yes, in impersonation skill it's said only "You can deploy..."
    But in state itself it's said, that "During the user's Active Turn, by expending one Entire Order while outside enemy LoF."

    So it is the clear rule.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    7,331
    Likes Received:
    14,817
    For what it's worth, Palanka's decision never made it into the FAQs, and doesn't appear to follow the written rules, so I wouldn't put too much weight on it. :(

    Several earlier threads (including my previous posts) conflate Skills and States - as macfergusson points out, choosing to turn off the Camouflage Skill is not listed as a cancellation clause for the Camouflaged State, and the State doesn't have any labels so doesn't have Negative Feedback.
     
    JoKeR, Foxbringer and wildchevy like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation