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Open vs. Closed Information: Camo and Deployment

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Verso, Nov 13, 2018.

  1. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    Hello, I had a question come up in a recent game and haven't been able to find anything conclusive on the Wiki or on the Forums. So here I am.

    If a model deploys in a Camo Token state, but possesses a rule like Infiltration, Forward Deployment, etc., and uses that rule, is it Open Information that the model possesses that Skill? I can see it being no because the model is overall Closed Information but I can also see it being Open because it's deploying outside the normal zone and has to have a reason for doing so.

    Thanks to anyone with a reply and something to point to, no one in our group has been sure so far.
     
  2. Icchan

    Icchan Well-Known Member

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    Everything about a camo marker is private information, except for the combat group it belongs to, for whatever reason.
     
  3. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    Piggy-backing on that then, what information would you be able to glean? How far the Marker Deployed and try to correlate that to a Skill?
     
  4. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    You can attempt to guess/estimate, but your opponent is not required to disclose it.
     
  5. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    So they have to measure to legally place the model but that measurement is not Open Information? Do I have to turn my back for the measurement, am I allowed to check it? Am I allowed to ask to see the measurement?

    Only thing I dislike about the game is how wonky some of these things can get. *sigh*
     
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  6. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    How do you know they're measuring? It could be HD in their own deployment zone. And no, unless they fail any required rolls, you've no right to the information.
     
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  7. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    So if they deploy outside their normal Deployment Zone per the Scenario I am to both turn my back so I don't accidentally get any information AND I have no recourse to ensure the measurement was proper. That's completely stupid if that's how it works.

    However the Open vs. Closed information mentions literally nothing about Deployment so I'm going to assume that's an incorrect answer as everything is Open Information unless explicitly stated as falling under Private. It seems I would be entitled to know where the model is going, just not how it is going there outside of something involving a roll (Infiltration).
     
  8. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    in the case of hidden deployment they have to note where the model is. when they do reveal, you are allowed to verify and contest its placement. for instance, i had a player place a hidden deployed model on his table half but outside deployment zone that did not even have the Infiltration skill.
     
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  9. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    you'll have to trust him that he have one of multiple skills that allowed him to place the marker outside the deployment zone. you cannot ask to know if it specifically is Infiltration or Superior Infiltration or if it is Forward Deployment L1 or L2 or Minelayer or Ambush. Once the information is revealed, if he incorrectly placed the model, you can call him out for cheating (or for misplaying the model skills by mistake).
     
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  10. Pr01yfic

    Pr01yfic Active Member

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    usually you measure the deployment zone across your side and then mark it out with dice. then measure the forward deployment line and mark it with dice. That way you can see when you place them that they are inside the desired range instead of measuring each model
     
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    If it's HD, no, you don't know anything until it's revealed, at which point everything becomes Open, but not until that point. If he's cheated, that's when you have recourse. However, if your opponents going to cheat like that, I'd imagine his presence won't be welcome for very long.
     
  12. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I think it's reasonable that you can know how far up the board it's being placed, so you can at least ask them if it's in the DZ, DZ+4, DZ+8, or table half. If they cross the table half they have to make a roll, and that requires disclosing PH value and appropriate modifier (-3 or +3). Note that if they place it within the first 4 inches outside their DZ you don't know if it's got FD 1, FD 2, or Infiltration.
     
  13. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    This is the only reasonable answer I've seen. In a competitive game it is laughable to keep Deployment so hidden. Obviously Skills are hidden information until revealed, that's fine. But to say that you have to trust an opponent with an unknown measurement and then go back to verify later is impossible. You would have to take photos of the Deployment otherwise it's he said/he said and it's a mess.

    In a casual game much of this can be hand-waived, in a competitive game it is extremely important to know as much Open Information as possible. That includes exactly how far a model is up the table in order to make educated guesses as to a Marker states contents. This also seems to be supported by the Open vs. Closed Information section of the Wiki so I'll consider my questions resolved.
     
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  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I dunno, there were people at Interplanetario deploying Noctifers outside of their deployment zones.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    My only point is that you don't need to know how far up the table the model is (the model is 15" from their table edge). Rather you need to know whether the model was deployed inside their DZ, DZ+4, DZ+8, their table half, your table half or your DZ. It's about the area, not the measurement.

    Measuring that a model is 15" from their table edge is pre-measuring of a sort that is not allowed.
     
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  16. LankyOgreBP

    LankyOgreBP Well-Known Member

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    Whether you like it or not is unfortunately, not part of the rules.
    There are a lot of things that are private information that require you to just trust your opponent or call over a judge. Technically, I don’t tell you my LTs WIP, just if I Pass, Fail, or Crit.
    This game works by having a social contract with your opponent. If you can’t have that agreement, the entire game collapses.

    As an Ariadna player, I purposefully might deploy my Chasseur Mineyayer at 20” so you think it is a Strelok.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As has been answered several times on the old forums, you do not have to disclose the PH value of the trooper you roll infiltration for nor whether it's superior infiltration. You do have to disclose the roll itself, however, and whether it's a success, crit, or failure.

    Following this, no it's not reasonable to ask them to disclose which deployment skill, by actual name, a camouflage marker uses unless it requires a roll at which point the type of roll is all that needs disclosure.

    http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/...ment-minelayer-and-aro/?page=2#comment-976805

    IJW wrote:

    Posted October 30, 2017

    Also, declaring the target number for all rolls (which was a thing in N2) was specifically removed in N3.​
     
    #17 Mahtamori, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  18. Verso

    Verso Active Member

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    And that's fine because it's in the confines of the rules. People in this thread are incorrectly attributing the Private Information label to things which are not Private Information. You can deploy your models wherever they can legally go but I get to know where they went (not including Hidden Deployment of course). That's really all I care about having access to for competitive play.
     
  19. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Exactly this. If I choose to deploy my Croc Man in the FD zone, rather than farther in, or to deploy his Mine in such a place that it seems like a Zulu Cobra, that's fine.
     
  20. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    If it's not Hidden Deployment, then the marker is on the table for you to see, and you can reasonably deduce what skill was used to place it there. However, you can't ask what skill was used to place it there, because that would be Private as opposed to Open Information.
     
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